HL Deb 16 June 1966 vol 275 cc138-40

3.12 p.m.

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they consider it fair that the selective employment tax is to be charged in respect of scientists employed in independent laboratories, engaged in working for manufacturing industry, yet refunded in respect of those working in universities.]

THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD CHAMPION)

My Lords, the noble Earl will by now have seen the Selective Employment Payments Bill, which was published yesterday. Clause 1(2) contains a provision that will bring into entitlement for the selective employment premium those establishments that are certified by the Minister of Technology to be engaged in scientific research relevant to manufacturing activities. Independent laboratories working for manufacturing industry are included within this provision.

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH

My Lords, while expressing gratitude to the noble Lord for giving that very satisfactory reply, and while, none the less, agreeing with what The Times said in their leading article to-day about the Bill produced yesterday being unselective to the point of chaos, may I ask the noble Lord whether not only research establishments but these independent laboratories can be certified by the Minister of Technology? May I also ask the noble Lord whether he does not think that the recent staggering "brain drain" of 800 scientists and engineers in a fortnight may not be partly due to the sense of insecurity engendered by the announcement of this tax? Would not the noble Lord agree that independent research establishments and consultants are an integral part of manufacturing industry?

LORD CHAMPION

My Lords, I do not necessarily always agree with any leading articles in The Times, and I should not in this case. So far as the second part of the noble Earl's supplementary question is concerned, the difficulty here is that it will be for the Ministry of Technology to certify what are the establishments which are to receive the premium. As the noble Earl knows very well, establishments of this kind do not conform to any set pattern, and every case will have to be judged on its merits. The inclusion of this clause in the Bill is to ensure that organisations of this kind receive equitable treatment. So far as the brain-drain is concerned, I scarcely see that this arises out of the Question which the noble Earl put upon the Order Paper.

LORD ST. OSWALD

My Lords, would the noble Lord not be his usual graceful self and concede that the concession which he has just announced is at least partly the result of the Government's having seen my noble friend's Question on the Order Paper?

LORD CHAMPION

My Lords, the Government is always amenable to sweet reason, from wherever it might come.

LORD IRONSIDE

My Lords, could the noble Lord say whether sponsored research organisations would be eligible to receive premiums?

LORD CHAMPION

My Lords, I did not quite get the point of the noble Lord's question, but when I read it afterwards and consider it I will write to the noble Lord and give him a reply.

LORD IRONSIDE

My Lords, I would thank the noble Lord very much.

LORD HAWKE

My Lords, arising out of the noble Lord's remark about sweet reasonableness and equity, would Her Majesty's Government see that part-time workers are not included in this selective tax?

LORD CHAMPION

I would suggest, my Lords, that that is a slightly different question.