§ 2.36 p.m.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Home Secretary was correctly reported in The Times newspaper on June 27, 1966, as having said in a speech at Leeds that the object of the prison system should be to deter and to reform, and in the last resort to protect the public; and whether Her Majesty's Government agree that the protection of the public should only be considered in the last resort.]
§ THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM)My Lords, the noble Lord has drawn an incorrect inference. My right honourable friend has repeatedly stated that his first priority is the protection of the public. In the speech to which the noble Lord refers my right honourable friend was discussing the purpose of imprisonment, and he was making the point that there are a limited number of offenders who must be detained, not because there is much hope of reforming or deterring them, but solely in order to protect the public.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, is not this the third occasion in a fortnight when Cabinet Ministers have made statements and then have had to explain them away?
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, I said "Is not this the third occasion …?"
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this rather unfortunate phraseology used by the Home Secretary has caused considerable anxiety among a great number of people who are becoming increasingly upset about the number of prison escapes which are taking place?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I reject entirely the suggestion that I am explaining anything away. The passage to which the noble Lord referred consisted of four sentences. In those four sentences The Times did a very good job compressing the whole speech, but naturally they were not able to convey the whole flavour of the speech, any more than the noble Lord in his Question was able to convey accurately what The Times said. Perhaps he will allow me just to quote. This is the second half of the passage from The Times:
The prisons to-day were overcrowded. The object of the prison system should be to deter, to reform, and in the last resort to protect society, but if the prisons were too full these objectives were to some extent frustrated".I would submit that the noble Lord has completely changed the emphasis of that in his Question.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that if he reads The Times report very carefully it could be read to mean—which was why I altered my Question slightly—that the purpose of a prison system should be to deter society, to reform society, and in the last resort to protect society. Obviously that was not what was meant and that was why I slightly altered the wording of my Question. Could the noble Lord answer my first supplementary question, as to whether he is aware that this unfortunate phraseology has caused considerable anxiety?
§ LORD STONHAMNo, my Lords; I am not aware that it has caused considerable anxiety, but if it has I am glad that the matter has been ventilated in order to dissipate entirely any such anxiety.