§ 6.34 p.m.
§ Debate on Second Reading resumed.
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, I am bound to thank those noble Lords who have participated in this debate. I do not propose to reply at any great length, because we have a heavy programme before us for the rest of the evening. I am grateful for the general welcome which has been given to the Bill, though some doubts have been expressed about certain aspects of it, in particular by my noble friend Lady Summerskill. I wish to thank all those noble Lords who have justifiably praised the work of my right honourable friend. He has had an extraordinarily difficult task during the past twelve months, dealing with the whole problem of this Service that we are discussing to a somewhat limited extent on this Bill.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Newton, that this Bill does not explicitly help group practice, but we are trying to tackle this in another way, as he so rightly said, and I hope this will have the effect of encouraging group practice, to which we have all certainly paid lip-service. It is something which is extremely valuable. The noble Lord went on to express some doubts about Clause 10 and its possible effects, but this is going to be an experiment. It is an experiment which I think is worthwhile. The Minister, and of course the Government, were expressing their views on this matter through my mouth. They believe that it might be of particular 391 advantage to the country if we could, as my noble friend Lady Summerskill said, secure a salaried service, but—and this is a point I must emphasise—we have given (and again it has been given through my mouth) a clear undertaking that we are not going to force a salaried service upon the medical profession. If eventually we are going to achieve this, we shall have to persuade the medical profession that it is desirable, both in their interests and in the interests of the patient
My noble friend Lady Summerskill is very keen on this, and I can understand it, but the profession does not want it yet. I should like to think that she would use her debating powers (which always frighten me when she is against me, and please me when she is against the other side) to the full within her own profession.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLThey are nearly all Conservative. It is difficult.
§ LORD CHAMPIONThey can sometimes be persuaded, but I agree that it takes a bit of doing.
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords—
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, do not start too much, because I must complete my reply as quickly as possible. If the noble Lady can persuade her profession to do this, I am sure that any Government would be glad to accede to its request in this matter, as we have been glad to accede to the request of the profession for the Corporation that we are putting into operation under the first nine clauses of this Bill.
The noble Baroness has expressed her doubts about the Corporation, and I can understand her feeling. A young person coming out of university, after a long period when he has not been earning, faces tremendous difficulties in trying to get into practice, and then having immediately to find money to repay what he will be borrowing under the first nine clauses of this Bill. But, my Lords, the medical profession wanted it this way. They asked for it, and we have acceded to their request; and we think that in the circumstances this was the right thing to do.
392 I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her kind words about my warmth and understanding. This is a happy relationship established between us, and I am grateful for it. The fact is that my warmth and understanding in this connection were not merely mine, because I was giving the House words that were put into my mouth by the Government as a whole, so that I was not letting this warmth and understanding spill out in words that I ought not to have used, as occasionally I tend to do at this Box. The noble Lord, Lord Auckland, gave a reasonably warm welcome to this Bill. He asked about the finance. I think he will find, if he reads my speech tomorrow, that I answered the point about the rates of interest to be charged, or at least I mentioned it.
§ LORD AUCKLANDMy Lords, may I just ask the noble Lord to clarify one thing? Will a young doctor who is starting off be able to get more favourable rates than an established doctor? Because I think there was some confusion about this matter in another place. I am not quite certain what the situation is, and it is an important matter.
§ LORD CHAMPIONThis is not laid down in the Bill. It is not laid down yet in any case. As I understand it, this is part of the scheme which will have to be decided, and I think the consideration which the noble Lord has presented to us is one which will have to be considered very carefully, because it is an extremely important one. The other point he made was that he thought £10 million, perhaps rising to £25 million by an Order in another place, might not be enough. If we are still in government when it is found this amount is not enough, I can assure the noble Lord we shall be happy to present a small Bill, if it will help the profession generally and the patients, as we think it might. Finally, I was extremely grateful to my noble friend Lady Gaitskell who came to my rescue as between myself and my noble friend Lady Summerskill. She certainly helped me greatly, and I think that, on balance, she was right about this matter. I hope that your Lordships will now give this Bill a Second Reading.
§ On Question, Bill read 2ª, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.