§ VISCOUNT BRENTFORDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government when they expect that the Report from the Royal Commission on the Penal System will be presented; and whether the two White Papers, The Child, the Family and the Young Offender and The Adult Offender, are being submitted to the Royal Commission for its consideration.]
§ THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM)My Lords, I regret that I am not in a position at present to forecast when the Royal Commission are likely to present a Report. The proposals in the two White Papers have been formulated wholly independently of the Royal Commission, who have however been kept informed of the Government's plans from an early stage.
§ VISCOUNT BRENTFORDMy Lords, while I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask whether he can give us an assurance that when the question of penal reform is dealt with it will come forward as one whole unity and will not be dealt with piecemeal?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware, the terms of reference of the Royal Commission are extremely wide and the Commission will inquire into their subject in great depth. They include, for example, re-examination of the concepts and purposes underlying the punishment and treatment of offenders in England and Wales. The Government regard the question of crime as a matter of vital urgency and importance and 966 have had to reserve to themselves the right to deal with some aspects of the matter which are regarded as particularly urgent. The Royal Commission are well aware of this fact and from the beginning have been kept informed of the Government's plans.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, while recognising the urgency and importance of dealing with the present wave of crime, is it not extraordinary that the Government have not asked for the views of the Royal Commission on the contents of these two Reports which, as the noble Lords has said, have been made quite independently? Would it not be extremely valuable to have the views of the Royal Commission on these Reports, and could not the noble Lord ask the Royal Commission to submit an Interim Report? In fact, has that not been done? Is it not a very serious disadvantage to have a piecemeal approach to this whole problem?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, the Royal Commission received copies of the two White Papers at the time of their publication. My right honourable friend accepts that the Final Report of the Royal Commission may suggest modifications of any arrangements resulting from implementation of the proposals in the two White Papers. In January of last year, when the Royal Commission were informed of the Government's intention, the Chairman of the Commission acknowledged a mutual understanding that the Government would not wish to be inhibited from introducing reforms which they thought essential, but that the Government would keep the Commission in touch with their thinking about proposed measures. What we cannot accept is that since the Royal Commission have a huge task—a task which will obviously occupy years—we should meanwhile be inhibited from introducing reforms which we consider both urgent and essential.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, I do not think anybody has suggested that the Government should be inhibited from introducing reforms by the fact that the Royal Commission have been appointed. But in considering those reforms, which have yet to be considered by this House and by another place, surely it would be of great value to have upon them the seal of approval of the 967 Royal Commission, if the Royal Commission were prepared to give it. What I am suggesting to the noble Lord, and what he has not dealt with, is this: could not the noble Lord and the Government ask the Royal Commission for their views on these particular proposals? It would be of great help to Parliament to know the views of the Royal Commission upon them. No suggestion that has been put forward by my noble friend, or by me, would inhibit the Government from taking action.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I agree with the noble and learned Viscount that the views of the Royal Commission on this and on all allied subjects are of the greatest importance, and the Government will welcome those views when they are received. The noble and learned Viscount, with all his experience, will be aware that the Government cannot dictate to any Royal Commission what their procedure should be. The position was that my right honourable friend the then Home Secretary informed the Royal Commission of our immediate intentions and proposals, and at that time the Commission were unable to give any indication of when they might be able to give an expression of their views. I am quite sure the noble and learned Viscount's suggestion will be fully noted, but it is not possible for me to give an assurance on behalf of the Royal Commission on the manner in which they will conduct their work, or if and when they will present an Interim Report.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, I was not asking for any such assurance; nor am I suggesting that the Government should seek to dictate to the Royal Commission. What I am asking the noble Lord to do—and it would have been better if it had been done a long time before—is to invite the Royal Commission, if they thought fit, to submit and publish in an Interim Report their observations on these Papers. That is an invitation—there is no dictation. The Royal Commission could do it if they wanted to; or they need not. I understand from what the noble Lord has said that no suggestion has been made to the Royal Commission that they should comment on these Reports.
§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF LONGFORD)My Lords, with great respect to the noble and learned Viscount, I think he will see, when he reads his last remarks in Hansard to-morrow, that they were not in any sense a question. I would venture to hope that we might pass on to the next Question.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, I do not accept the noble Earls rebuke, because I was putting a question to the noble Lord as to whether he would ask the Royal Commission to submit a Report. To that we have had no answer. We have had talk about dictation and matters of that sort, which I have not suggested. I think I am entitled, when it has been put to me that I have suggested the Government should be inhibited, or that the Royal Commission should be dictated to, to make it clear that no suggestion of that kind was made.