HOME DEFENCE (Hansard, 2 February 1966)

§ THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM)
My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to repeat a Statement on the home defence review which my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has made in another place to-day. I will use his own words:
"I am now able to state in general terms the outcome of the Government's review of Home Defence. We have concluded that, despite the reduction in the risk of a nuclear conflict, we cannot discontinue Civil Defence preparations. There is always the possibility of war arising from misunderstanding or miscalculation; and we cannot be certain about the future spread of nuclear weapons.
"Our studies confirm that, in the event—fortunately, unlikely—of a 397 nuclear conflict, sensible civil defence preparations could do much to save lives, to relieve suffering and to help the nation to survive as an organised entity. But there is a limit to what we can afford by way of insurance against this risk.
"We have accordingly decided to restrict our preparations to those that would be likely to make a significant contribution to national survival. As a consequence, it should be possible to achieve appreciable savings. We estimate that expenditure in 1966–67 will amount to £19.7 million as against£22.7 million in 1965–66, and £24.1 million in 1964–65.
"Further consultations with the local authorities and others concerned are required before we can settle the detailed application of our general conclusion. The Secretary of State for Scotland and I are undertaking these consultations forthwith. They will cover, in particular, the functions and size of the Civil Defence Corps, to see how with substantially reduced numbers the Corps might best be organised to carry out essential tasks. Concentration of the available resources on a highly-trained nucleus of volunteers seems the right approach. Subsequently we shall consult representatives of industry on the implications for the Industrial Civil Defence Service. We shall also be consulting the local authority associations on proposals for shelter and dispersal.
"We are adjusting the emergency system of control to provide more flexibility and a greater measure of decentralisation at the regional level. We shall maintain and continue to improve the efficiency of the Warning and Monitoring Organisation, including the Royal Observer Corps. We shall support the emergency preparations of the police and fire services (including the Auxiliary Fire Service) and the National Hospital Service Reserve. Some adjustments will be made to plans for stockpiling and the due functioning of essential utilities and services, including broadcasting.
"We have also decided to establish a military Home Defence Force on which my honourable friend the Minister of Defence for the Army will be 398 giving the House further information later this afternoon. This Force would provide the police with valuable support in the maintenance of law and order in an emergency."
My noble friend Lord Shackleton will bring to your Lordships' notice particulars of the Home Defence Force.

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for repeating this Statement. I do not wish to sound unduly ungenerous, but it strikes me as very much "the mixture a5 before", albeit a bit watered down. After all we have heard about a comprehensive review of Civil Defence, and given the very long time which has elapsed while that review has been in progress, I should be less than frank in not saying that this Statement comes as rather an anti-climax. I should have thought that this fairly small mouse hardly justified the great mountain of uncertainty which the Government themselves have created among those responsible for Civil Defence throughout this country. But there is a lot in the Statement. I hope the noble Lord will be able to agree with me that there would be advantage in our debating this Statement, and, indeed, the succeeding one, at a fairly early date. Could he give me any assurance to that effect?

§ LORD STONHAM
My Lords, as the noble Earl will be well aware, the question of a debate is not a matter for me, but if there were discussions through the usual channels I can assure him that I should be glad to enlarge on what it is now impossible to say. The only other thing I would add in view of what he has said, is that the Government attach great importance to this question, and I make no apology for the length of the review. We believe that we have now arrived at the right decision, and cannot agree that the saving of millions of pounds is insignificant.

LORD SAYE AND SELE
My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for this Statement, which will give the greatest joy, at first at any rate, to those who work for Civil Defence throughout the country, especially locally, and who have been waiting for a Statement for goodness knows how long; and passing over the platitudes which appear at intervals, of 399 course, throughout a Statement like this, we come to one or two points which are necessary to carry it forward. The platitudes are, for instance, the fact that sensible Civil Defence might save much life. That is fairly obvious to most people who think. Then we are told that: Further consultations with local authorities and others concerned are required before we can settle…". For goodness sake! my Lords, let us have that "before" fairly soon. For how many years I do not know, the Civil Defence have been waiting for some sort of Statement telling them what they are to do and when they are to do it, and how they are to pay for it, the latter being particularly difficult.
Being a Scotsman I am glad to see that the Secretary of State for Scotland is to have consultations forthwith. A very interesting conjunction is the "forthwith" with the "immediate", or whatever word was used. Then there appear the words: the functions and the size of the Civil Defence Corps, to see how with substantially reduced numbers…". To reduce substantially the numbers would be rather difficult in the case of wardens, at any rate; because, practically speaking, they do not exist. So I shall be glad to hear how the Government manage to reduce the number of wardens. Then we find reference to: concentration of the available resources on a highly trained nucleus of volunteers". A highly trained nucleus of volunteers takes quite a lot of training. We are told by the Government: Subsequently"— and note that word, my Lords, because that is another word which helps to put things off— we shall consult representatives of industry on the implications for the Industrial Civil Defence Service". That has always been a question that has worried me, because, so far as I know, at any rate in my county, it has not been tied up in any proper kind of way with the local Civil Defence.

§ LORD CHAMPION
My Lords, I am sorry to intervene but the noble Lord seems to be debating the Statement. Usually in the case of a Statement it is possible to preface a few questions with a few explanatory remarks, but I feel 400 that in this case the noble Lord is going a little too far.

LORD SAYE AND SELE
My Lords, the statements are there and I shall be glad to have any answers to them that I can obtain. But, except for that, I shall be quite happy to have made them.
The Warning and Monitoring Organisation is, I think, as satisfactory as any part of the Organisation has been so far. The Government say: We have also decided to establish a military Home Defence Force on which…the Minister of Defence for the Army will be"— making a Statement. My Lords, with those few remarks I am glad to welcome the Statement.

§ LORD STONHAM
My Lords, I am most grateful for the interest shown by the noble Lord, but I am bound to say that he did not contribute anything to the sense of urgency which he wants. I welcome the implied tribute which he paid to the members of the Civil Defence Corps. It is a tribute in which I join, and I express the hope that all of them will continue with the job which they are now doing.
With regard to consultations with local authorities, the noble Lord will be aware that this review had to take effect at Government level, because it was a question of an internal review of Government policy. We could not at that stage consult local authorities, but we are now going to do so on those matters which come within the local authority field, and we shall conduct those discussions with a sense of urgency. The noble Lord said that we have been waiting for years. The last Civil Defence review was in 1962. The results of that review have been implemented over the last three years, and the changes then decided upon have been carried out; but these things cannot remain static. Requirements change, and it is absolutely necessary to review the position periodically. I do not agree with the noble Lord that the wardens do not exist. He must be in a peculiar part of the country. We have not as many wardens as we should like, or as we should need in an emergency, but we have a strong and extremely useful force of wardens.
With regard to the noble Lord's comments on the highly trained nucleus of 401 volunteers, that is precisely what is in the Civil Defence Corps now. Out of a grand total of 210,700 in the Civil Defence Corps, including non-active reserves, only 60,900 are Class A volunteers who have taken a three-year period of training and will go on to advanced training, and that is the sort of thing we have in mind when we speak of a "highly trained nucleus". Certainly we must consult representatives of industry on the implications for Civil Defence. Industrial Civil Defence is 129,000 strong. We shall start those discussions immediately. The Warning and Monitoring system is to continue virtually unchanged, except for certain matters which we believe can be improved.

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, may I ask for enlightenment on one point? The noble Lord paid a tribute to the members of the Civil Defence Corps which I am sure we shall all wish to echo, and he went on to express the hope that they would all continue in their jobs. Does this mean that the Government are not proposing substantially to reduce the numbers of the Corps?

§ LORD STONHAM
My Lords, I did differentiate in the total overall numbers between certain classes of volunteers, and I mentioned, in effect, that at present some 66,500 are on reserve. This is one of many matters which we shall discuss with the local authorities, in order to determine the way in which the functions will be carried out and the numbers needed. But we do not see any reason at present for either any substantial withdrawals or dismissals from the Civil Defence Corps. I said earlier—and I mean it—that I hoped that all those doing such a wonderful job would carry on doing it.