HL Deb 14 December 1966 vol 278 cc1646-9

2.38 p.m.

LORD LINDGREN

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government how many persons undertaking full-time further education are drawing unemployment insurance benefit.]

LORD BOWLES

My Lords, I regret that the information sought is not available. But before a claim to unemployment benefit by a person engaged in full-time studies could succeed, all the conditions for benefit, which include the basic condition of availability for employment, would have to be satisfied.

LORD LINDGREN

My Lords, has my noble friend had his attention called to the article in the Press of December 6, in which it was alleged that a Dr. Maurice Rosen was drawing benefit to the extent of £8 19s. 6d. a week while undergoing a course of training for further qualifications at the Royal College of Surgeons; and that the same statement said that there were at least 50 other doctors undertaking courses to gain further qualifications and also drawing unemployment benefit? If this Press report is correct, is this not an abuse of the Unemployment Insurance Acts?

LORD BOWLES

Yes, my Lords. Two papers, the Sun and the Daily Express carried rather similar stories along those lines. The position is that when a person signs for unemployment benefit his attention is drawn, each time he signs, to a notice which says: You are declaring that on each day or days for which you sign and on any previous days signed for or marked 'unemployed' you were unemployed, and were capable of and available for work. Item (2) on the form says: I have read and understand the leaflet 'notice to Claimants' and that the conditions for benefit are fulfilled in my case. The position, therefore, is that a man should not sign the declaration that he is available for work unless he is prepared to accept at once any suitable employment. In order to prove that he is available for work, he must also show that he is able and willing to work on conditions and for hours similar to those for other persons in the locality who are engaged in the employment for which he has declared himself available.

LORD LINDGREN

My Lords, if, in fact, the shortage of doctors is as acute as we are led to believe, surely the Ministry of Labour can allocate a doctor, or notify him of vacancies in a medical practice.

LORD BOWLES

Yes, my Lords; of course my noble friend is perfectly right. There is a shortage of doctors. I saw the Ministry of Health this morning, and they say that, so far as facilities for training are concerned, the Minister of Health fully recognises the importance of these facilities. In large measure, intending medical specialists obtain the training they need by securing hospital appointments which provide experience and supervision suitable to their requirements. Where there is a need for them to be supplemented by more formal study Hospital Boards are encouraged to grant study leave.

Service requirements inevitably limit the extent of this, particularly at a time of staff shortages. Nevertheless, there were over 9,500 grants of study leave, usually with pay and expenses, to hospital doctors in the twelve months ended February, 1966. Moreover, facilities for postgraduate medical education in regional district hospitals are now being generally developed and in a number of cases suitable courses are being arranged which junior hospital doctors can attend on a day-release basis. These can greatly reduce the need for periods of full-time study leave.

I understand that Dr. Rosen is training to be an anesthetist. I should have expected that facilities such as those I have described could have been available to him had he taken a hospital appointment. The method of training which he adopted, a somewhat lengthy full-time course, is not by any means the only method: indeed, the Postgraduate Medical Journal of June, 1966, I understand contains a paper on the education of the anesthetist which makes no reference whatever to this kind of training.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, am I to gather from what my noble friend says that these hospital doctors who are consistently over-worked can all, if they apply to the right quarter, obtain study leave and also financial support, concurrently with the hospital job?

LORD BOWLES

Yes, they can do that, and, as I have said, 9,500 did so up to February, 1966. Any of them can do so, and a great effort is being made by the Ministry of Health to see that any young hospital doctor can improve his qualifications and so get a higher post later on.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

My Lords, could the Minister explain whether in the final event a doctor can, or cannot, draw unemployment benefit, such as the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, suggested? Because the answer was not very clear but rather involved.

LORD BOWLES

Certain doctors who are moving from one practice to another can do so, if they are not self-employed. Doctors who come back from service abroad can do so, for a little while. And some doctors who are not well enough to hold down a job because of some physical reason or other can draw unemployment benefit. But no doctor, who is taking a full-time course can at the same time, because he is not available for work, draw unemployment insurance benefit.

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, is the noble Lord suggesting that the doctor in question was drawing unemployment benefit in addition to pay on paid leave?

LORD BOWLES

No; he resigned his position in the hospital and took on a long course with the Royal College of Surgeons to become an anæsthetist, and he also drew £8 19s. 6d. a week to help supplement his keep. And let the noble Lord not forget that doctors in this country are now subsidised to the extent of £8,000 in educating them to become general practitioners.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I apologise if it is a silly question, but was he right or wrong?

LORD BOWLES

It is not a silly question. It might be silly for me to answer it, because the matter is at the moment sub judice. I do not want to prejudice this doctor, although he has been rather active in certain political matters in the last few months.