§ 3.47 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, with the permission of the House and, if I may say so, by the courtesy of the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, I would ask leave to repeat a Statement which the Prime Minister is making in another place. These are the words of the Prime Minister:
"With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a Statement.
"Her Majesty's Government have now reviewed the Rhodesian problem in all its aspects, and British officials will be returning to Salisbury at the end of this week for consultation with the Governor, and for further discussion with Rhodesian officials on the same exploratory and non-committal basis as before.
"It is clear that further exploration of a number of important issues is essential before we can judge whether or not a basis may exist for negotiations, and with whom such negotiations might take place.
"As I have repeatedly informed the House, it remains our purpose to ensure that any ultimate solution fully conforms with our six principles; and it can be negotiated only with a constitutional Government in Salisbury.
"Among the issues, therefore, that we need to explore further are the restoration of legality in Rhodesia, and the way in which the acceptability of any solution to the people of Rhodesia as a whole is to be tested.
"Meantime, we shall vigorously maintain our policy of sanctions, which has received and continues to receive widespread international support, reflecting the general condemnation by the world of the illegal action last November.
"We remain concerned over the special problems which this situation has created for Zambia. Our High Commissioner in Lusaka and Mr. Malcolm MacDonald, who returned to Lusaka last week, have resumed the talks with the Zambian Government on 1603 the ways in which we might help in meeting Zambia's difficulties.
"We naturally wish to see progress as soon as possible towards a solution of this unhappy situation, in the interests both of Rhodesia and of this country: but I cannot forecast early results. I can assure the House that no settlement will be reached without the authority of Parliament, with whom it rests to grant independence to Rhodesia. Since we are approaching the Recess I should like to make it clear that, although there is at present no indication that a settlement is likely within the next two months, nevertheless if there were any developments during the Recess making possible a settlement before the time fixed for the re-assembly of Parliament, we should regard this as sufficiently important to advise you, Mr. Speaker, under Standing Order No. 117, that the House should be recalled, so that the views of Parliament could be made known before any final commitment were made."
My Lords, that concludes the Statement being made by the Prime Minister.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, your Lordships will be grateful to the noble Earl the Leader of the House, and indeed to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, for allowing this Statement to be made at this time. I think that your Lordships will also be pleased to hear that the talks are to be resumed in Salisbury. I hope that the noble Earl will realise what importance we on this side of the House attach to the talks and how necessary it is that there should be a settlement of this problem. I am also glad of the assurance which the noble Earl has given, that Parliament will be recalled if any developments of significance take place. May I ask him whether he will give an assurance that there is no question of this matter being referred to the United Nations if talks break down?
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, I, too, should like to thank the noble Earl for making this Statement. May I assure him, on behalf of my noble friends on these Benches, that we are very pleased that the Government have given an assurance that any ultimate solution will con- 1604 form with the Six Principles and that Parliament will be recalled before any form of decision is made.
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, may I reply to the two Leaders of the Parties opposite? I am grateful to both the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition and to the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, on behalf of the Liberal Party, for what they have said. I am glad they recognise that we have given a very solemn assurance about Parliament, and that if any move were made at any time in connection with the United Nations, or anywhere else, it would, of course, require to be brought before Parliament.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl the Leader of the House whether he is aware that all of us welcome particularly two statements: the first, that any settlement must be with a constitutional Government, and the second, that it must be acceptable to all the people of Rhodesia as a whole? May I ask him, in view of the serious situation which is now arising in Africa, because of the disillusionment due to the long continuation of this situation and one which may come to a crisis when the Commonwealth Ministers' Conference meets, whether the Government will consider, contrary to the view which has been expressed from the Opposition Front Bench, that the United Nations should now be asked to apply mandatory sanctions in order that this illegal Government may be ended?
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, I feel that I might be unwise to begin offering opinions as to hypothetical developments. Indeed, I may even have gone a little far when I said to the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, just now that if there were any move (I think I said) of any kind it would involve the reassembly of Parliament. I think that I had better confine myself to returning to the words of the Statement—namely,
… if there were any developments during the Recess, making possible a settlement before the time fixed for the re-assembly of Parliament, we should regard this as sufficiently important toinvolve the recall of Parliament. I think that the language there is probably safest, and that it would be unwise for me to try to improve on it.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, may I specifically ask the noble Earl whether he will give an assurance that, supposing the Government decided to refer this matter to the United Nations—which I for one should greatly deplore—Parliament would be recalled?
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, I am afraid that I cannot give any assurance beyond what is in the Statement, but I cannot believe that a major development of this sort would fall outside the Statement I have just made. But I am afraid that it would be very unwise for me to try, impromptu, to improve on the phraseology of the Statement. I do not think I can help the House at all by offering my personal opinion as to what is and what is not included in these words.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, perhaps I may help the noble Earl by saying this to him. If such an occasion did arise, and the Government decided to refer the matter to the United Nations, we on this side of the House would certainly seek the urgent recall of Parliament.
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, as the noble Lord knows perfectly well, I am entirely at his disposal at all times, and we could discuss the matter. But we are dealing with a hypothetical contingency and I think the language of the Statement is probably the safest line to follow.
§ LORD ROWLEYMy Lords, in view of the rather strong statements that have just been made by the noble Lord who leads the Opposition against Her Majesty's Government about referring this problem of Rhodesia to the United Nations, will my noble friend bear in mind that the noble Lord is far too late in his representation; that I myself was present in the United Nations last year when the matter was raised by Her Majesty's Government—and very properly raised—and that, without referring the complete responsibility to the United Nations, it would be a tragedy if Her Majesty's Government dissociated themselves from any consideration of the problem by the United Nations?
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, I am sure that that is a view widely held in many parts of the House, but in 1606 my eyes this phrase "reference to the United Nations" is itself rather ambiguous, as the noble Lord has just brought out, and I do not think that I should help anybody by trying to improve on the language of the Prime Minister's Statement.
§ LORD ALPORTMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl the Leader of the House whether he will bear in mind the concern which a great many people in this country have felt at the most recent developments in the University College of Rhodesia, and whether Her Majesty's Government, during the course of these negotiations or otherwise, will do everything in their power to ensure that this institution continues as a multiracial centre of higher education in Southern Africa?
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords I am sure that what the noble Lord has said strikes an echo in the hearts of most of us.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, may I intervene once more? The noble Lord, Lord Rowley, was quite right to take me up. I think that I used the wrong language. What I really meant was, if the Government were to abdicate their responsibility to the United Nations—because the Government have made it perfectly plain that they consider this a matter for the British Government.
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, I think that the noble Lord originally used the expression, "reference to United Nations". If he talks of abdicating responsibility, I cannot think that this Government are going to do that very quickly.
§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARDMy Lords, may I ask whether the Government have any plans to try to induce former British Colonies, such as Nigeria, to return to constitutional rule?
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, referring to what my noble friend Lord Alport said, has the noble Earl noticed in to-day's issue of the Guardian, the organ of the Liberal Party, that the Principal of Salisbury University stated in Johannesburg that those who were dismissed from the University had been engaged in subversive activities and expected what was coming to them. Did 1607 the noble Earl also notice that six members of the Opposition in Kenya have been placed under restriction for subversive activities? Have the Government received any protest, or are they proposing to make any, about that?
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, I am afraid that the last point hardly arises, so the noble Lord will forgive me for not discussing it. I read the Guardian will almost fanatical zeal, without being aware that it is the official organ of the Liberal Party, but I am afraid that I missed the particular statement to which the noble Lord refers.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether he is aware that the Guardian is not the official organ of the Liberal Party or of any other Party and that it represents only itself?
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, without wishing to make an anti-Liberal joke, which is too easily responded to in this House, I think that the Liberal Party should take a great deal of pride in the Guardian, if it were their official organ.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, we take a great deal of pride in the Guardian as being an independent newspaper, not bound to the Liberal Party or any other Party, which in itself is a matter, I think, of great rarity in this country.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether he can hold out any hope that, between now and when the House rises, he may yet give some additional report on the question asked by my noble Leader? Secondly, could the noble Earl at this stage give any further explanation of a term he used in his Statement, which perplexes many, and to which no answer has been given to many questions to-day—how one determines what is" acceptable to the people of Rhodesia as a whole"?
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, I am sorry, but the noble Lord will forgive me if I do not add anything further to the Statement.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, for the sake of the Record, may I ask the noble Earl the Leader of the House whether he is aware that the head of the University in Salisbury has not said 1608 that all the deportees have been engaged in subversive activity. His statement was very clear. He was referring only to one or two of those who have been deported.
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, I was not aware of the original statement attributed to the Guardian or of this correction.