§ 3.54 p.m.
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, I should like to repeat a Statement which my right honourable friend the Postmaster General has just made in another place. His words were: "In recent years the Post Office has developed into a complex of vast business enterprises. It now faces considerable problems of expansion, 1329 modernisation and reorganisation if it is to meet the growing demands of the economy.
"In considering whether or not the Civil Service context in which the Post Office functions is appropriate in present circumstances, the Government have recently carried out a fundamental survey of its management, structure and functions. After the most careful consideration it has been decided the time has now come to make a change, and that, instead of being a Department of State with a Minister at its head, the Post Office should become a public corporation, the members of which would be appointed by and responsible to a Minister.
"Within this corporation the management of the various services would have an opportunity to develop on more independent lines but always with a primary responsibility for the maintenance of comprehensive national services available to all citizens in all parts of the country.
"A final decision on the exact form of the reorganisation and of the internal management structure must await publication of the report of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries, which is now examining the Post Office, and the fullest consultations with the representatives of the staff. These consultations will now be put in hand, and a White Paper will be presented to the House in due course setting out the Government's final proposals.
"The Government believe that this decision to modernise the status and management of the Post Office will make a considerable contribution to its efficiency, and the efficiency of Britain, in the years ahead."
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, the noble Lady has made a most important Statement on the future of the Post Office. We on this side welcome it as far as it goes. It leaves many points unanswered, and many questions will be asked, such as to whom the new corporation will be responsible and whether or not the post of Postmaster General will vanish. But these are only the roughest outlines. I wonder whether the noble Lady could tell us when the White Paper will be forthcoming so that we can study the 1330 details in full. Although we have had only the rough outlines, one thing that seems to emanate from them is the quaint whiff of denationalisation. It would appear that the Post Office is now going to be subject to slightly less centralised authority than before. Is this the recommendation of the firm of efficiency experts, Messrs. Kinsey, who are looking into the Post Office? I think it would be interesting if we could know that. Also, can the noble Lady say when this reorganisation is likely to take place? Is it a question of one, two or five years? Could she give us some indication?
§ 3.57 p.m.
LORD REAMy Lords, may I join in thanking the noble Lord, Lady Phillips—I call her "noble Lord" deliberately, for she is a Lord of Parliament—for the Statement which she has just given us. It was most interesting. But I would suggest that there is no reason given in it why the change should take place. They say that it will be better and that the Post Office will have the opportunity to develop on more independent lines; but it is not made very clear why. It seems to me halfway towards private enterprise—which, of course, is a very good thing—rather than towards nationalisation. Could the noble Lord, Lady Phillips, say whether the Government are perhaps using this as an alibi against awkward questions in Parliament so they can get out of it—as they would have to get out of it—on questions such as those on the B.B.C. and other Departments. From these Benches we welcome the Statement in general, and wish her and it a good passage.
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, on the point about when we shall have the White Paper, my right honourable friend aims to issue this by next Spring. The aim is that the corporation will take over some time in 1969. In reply to the noble Lord's other point, speaking from the brief, the reasons for the change are these: first, the activities of the Post Office are far more akin to those of a nationalised industry than of a normal Government Department; second, the Board will have more continuity of direction and control and have less reason to centralise and so to slow up decision-making; and third, the Civil Service structure and organisation is designed 1331 mainly as a regulator and cannot be ideal for a basically commercial task.
To sum up, we feel that a system based on ministerial and Civil Service traditions and structures is not easily compatible with dynamic management and responsiveness to change increasingly required of a growth industry in these days. On the point about the Postmaster General, the Minister's accountability to the House will depend on the terms of the Act, and this is of course too early to say which Minister will in fact be responsible.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lady this? In the event of the new corporation making a surplus, will it be allowed to use it or will that, as usual, be raided by the Treasury?
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lady can answer this question, but ever since the Charter was originally granted by Charles II the Royal Mail has been known as such. May I venture to express the hope that that title will not be dropped, because in my experience it meant a great deal, particularly during the war?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, the Postmaster General is well aware of this, and I cannot comment on it at this stage.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lady would tell us why it was necessary to make this Statement at this moment, as I understand there is not be a White Paper until next Spring? Will there not be a considerable period of uncertainty for everybody in the Post Office between now and the issue of the White Paper?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, negotiations with the staff will naturally take place, but this is a constitutional decision, and this is merely a time stated here. It does not of necessity tie the Government; it may in fact be earlier.
§ LORD ABERDAREMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lady what effect this will have on the position of the B.B.C. and the I.T.A.?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, I think I might say to the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, that that is not relevant to this particular corporation as they are already separate corporations.
§ EARL ATTLEEMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lady whether the Post Office will retain its democratic basis as upheld by the Postmaster General and the Chief Engineer in my time?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, I should like to reassure the noble Earl that the Postmaster General has these points very much in mind. In any case we shall have an opportunity to deal with these matters in the White Paper, and certainly when the Bill is before the House.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, as the noble Lady referred to the question of efficiency as one of the reasons for setting up this corporation, could she ask her right honourable friend whether, between now and next year, or in the not too distant future, he would look into the question of the increasing number of wrong telephone numbers which are prevalent at the moment?