§ 2.45 p.m.
§ Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Docks and Harbours Bill, has consented to place Her interest, so far as it is concerned on behalf of the Crown, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.
§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD CHAMPION)My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
§ Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Champion.)
§ On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments.
§ Clause 4 [Licensing authorities and their ports]:
§ LORD CHAMPIONmoved, in subsection (2), after "may" to insert "by notice given to the licensing authority". The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is really a paving amendment to prepare the way for the Amendment on the Order Paper to Clause 7, and I think it would be convenient if we could consider the Amendment to Clause 7 along with this one. The purpose of these Amendments is to remedy an inaccuracy in subsection (2) of Clause 4 of the Bill. This is the clause which gives the Minister power to call 1071 in applications for licences where the licensing authority has been unreasonably dilatory in dealing with them. The Minister is then empowered to deal with them himself just as though they had come to him in the ordinary way on appeal from the decision of the licensing authority. Paragraph (b) of subsection (2) of Clause 4 accordingly says that, in dealing with applications in these circumstances, the Minister shall have "the like powers and duties" as he would have in relation to appeals.
The Amendment to Clause 7 clarifies the position. It provides for the Minister to notify the Council that he has called in certain applications for licences, and it provides for the Council to be able to make representations to the Minister as to what decisions he ought to take on those applications. This whole process of the Minister acting in case of default by the licensing authority is purely a reserve power, and we should certainly hope that it would never need to be used. But the procedure to be followed if the situation did arise should obviously be made clear. I hope your Lordships will agree that the Amendments achieve this, and I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 24, after ("may") insert the said words.—(Lord Champion.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 7 [Appeals and objections]:
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 9, line 47, at end insert—
() Where the Minister gives a notice under section 4(2) of this Act directing that any application be referred to him he shall give a copy of the notice to the Council; and—
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 8 [Determination of appeals and objections]:
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, I think it would be convenient if we took this Amendment and Amendment No. 4 together. The present wording in line 18 says simply that the Minister
may reconsider the decision of the licensing authority on all applications".It does not say how he is to get hold of these applications in order to reconsider them. It is necessary to provide that, before he can reconsider them, the Minister should direct that the applications should be referred to him, and this is what the amendment does. I beg to move.Page 10, line 18, leave out from ("may") to ("all") in line 19 and insert ("direct that").—(Lord Champion.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 20, after first ("port") insert ("be referred to him and may reconsider any decision on those applications").—(Lord Champion.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, this is a straightforward drafting Amendment.
§ I beg to move.
1073
§
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 22, leave out from ("duties") to end of line 23 and insert ("in relation to those applications as the licensing authority had (except the said duty).").—(Lord Champion.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
LORD CHAMPION moved, after subsection (3), to insert:
() For the purpose of disposing of any appeal against, or objection to, any such proposal made before the commencement of section 1 of this Act, the Minister may direct that all applications so made in relation to the port in question be referred to him and may reconsider any decision on those applications, and shall accordingly have the like powers and duties in relation to those applications as the licensing authority had (except the duty under section 5(7) of this Act to consult the Board).
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is an Amendment which requires a little more explanation than some I have already moved. It remedies a small defect in Clause 8. I think by this time we are all familiar with the point that, when licensing is first introduced, as soon as one applicant for a licence in a particular port appeals against a decision by the authority to refuse him a licence, that appeal must immediately bring in question all the other licensing decisions for that port. This is because the decision in one case—not only as to whether to grant the licence or to refuse it, but also as to the number of workers to be allocated to those who are granted licences—may well affect the decisions in other cases. All the workers in the port must be allocated between the employers granted licences, and if more are allocated to one employer fewer will have to be allocated to the others.
§ For this reason there is provision in subsection (2) of Clause 8 whereby, once the Minister receives an appeal or an objection against the decision of the licensing authority on a licence application, he can reconsider all the applications in that particular port. But it could happen that all the employers who have applied for licences are content with the decisions of the licensing authority and no appeal against those decisions, or objections to them, are made. At the same time, the licensing authority may have made a proposal as to the number of dock workers it proposes itself to employ and possibly the parts of the port in which it proposes to employ 1074 them. It could be that one or more of the employers would lodge an appeal against such a proposal—for instance, seeking to ensure that the licensing authority should be restricted to employing fewer workers than it was proposing to employ. But the provision in subsection (2) of Clause 8, whereby once a particular case is the subject of appeal all the others are reconsidered, would not cover the situation I have just described, because subsection (2) refers only to appeals against and objections to decisions on applications. The Amendment puts right any difficulty which might arise in this connection by introducing a new subsection after subsection (3), providing that where there is an appeal against or an objection to a proposal, the Minister may reconsider all the applications for licences in the port in question. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 38, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Champion.)
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation, which I have listened to attentively. I assume that this is is making an improvement in the Bill, but although I have listened very closely I must confess I have not necessarily grasped the full import of this particular Amendment. But from all that the noble Lord has said, I myself would be very happy to let this Amendment come in. I would, however, only say I do think it is perhaps rather a pity that an Amendment of this apparent complexity should have been put before us so late, on Third Reading.
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, I apologise for the fact that some of these Amendments have in fact come rather late, but it is one of the functions of this House to amend Bills even up to this point, and I am grateful to this House for having amended this Bill as we have and for permitting me to amend it in the way now proposed.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 13 [Compensation for refusal, etc., of licence]:
§ 2.53 p.m.
§
LORD CHAMPION moved, in subsection (1)(b), after "expenditure" to insert:
other than payments of income tax (including surtax), capital gains tax or corporation tax".
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment relates to Clause 13 which defines the compensation to which an employer is entitled if he has to wind up his dock business because of refusal of a licence by a licensing authority. One element in the compensation will be reimbursement of any expenditure incurred in winding up his business. This is provided for in paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of Clause 13. Expenditure in winding up would cover such items as legal fees for sale of land or premises and auctioneers' fees for sale of equipment.
§ I am advised, however, that this provision as it stands might also be held to cover expenditure which took the form of certain tax payments. I think it will be agreed that it would be quite wrong to allow payments of this kind to rank for compensation, for it must be remembered that the surviving employers in the dock will have to meet the cost of compensation through the levy which will be put upon them. If the House would like examples of how the tax might affect the position I can give them, but at this stage I now simply beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 30, after ("expenditure") insert the said words.—(Lord Champion.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 16 [Determination of amount of compensation]:
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, I apologised for the fact that we were amending this Bill late in the procedure of this House, and I have to apologise again for the fact that this Amendment appeared on the Order Paper very late and such a short time before our debate. This is a necessary slight Amendment, but I do not think I need waste the time of the House explaining it, as I am fairly sure that what this Amendment brings about will be quite clear to everyone who has been interested in this Bill throughout all its stages. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 10, leave out from beginning to ("determine") in line 11 and insert ("Within six months of the making of an application for compensation under section 13 of this Act the licensing authority shall").—(Lord Champion.)
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, since this is the last Amendment and the final 1076 stage of this Bill, I should like to take this opportunity of thanking the noble Lord, Lord Champion, and indeed his colleagues in another place, for the very great care which they gave to certain points which the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, and I represented to the Government. I would also thank the noble Lord, Lord Champion, very sincerely for the great courtesy—which we always receive from him—with which he has handled this measure.
The noble Lord said just now that he was grateful to your Lordships for agreeing to make Amendments to this Bill in its later stages. I would only demur to the extent that I think it was a pity that the Government themselves were not able to make one further Amendment at a late stage of this Bill, at Report in fact, and were not prepared to listen to the still small voices of reason and common sense which were heard from all quarters of your Lordships' House. Nevertheless, we believe this to be a good Bill, although not as good as it might have been, and from these Benches I wish it well.
LORD REAMy Lords, I had intended to say very much the same thing on the Motion that the Bill do now pass, but I gather it is more appropriate I should now add my thanks and congratulations to the noble Lord for the competent and very clear way in which he has carried the Bill through. As we are saying farewell to the Bill, there is one little point—Clause 5(5)—which we think might be encouraged and would have given continuity, stability and incentive, instead of this clause being the rather restrictive and regrettable clause that it now is. If there is any chance of its being improved by further legislation, or if it stays as a preamble to nationalisation, we hope the Government's eyes will not be closed to such possibilities as there may be. And we thank the noble Lord for the way in which he has conducted the proceedings on this Bill.
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, I can take this opportunity of saying what I was going to say on the Motion that the Bill do now pass. I must admit 1 nearly succumbed to the blandishments of the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, the noble Lord, Lord Rea, and the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, on this point, which is a matter, 1077 and has been a matter, of some contention. The only thing I can say in this connection is that I made sure that the points of view they had put forward so forcefully in this House were conveyed to the right quarter, and my right honourable friends felt, after considering them all, that the Bill was very much better as it stood than it would have been if we had included their Amendment, important though it was. I am extremely grateful to the House for the way in which it has received this Bill, and in particular for the courteous help I have received from noble Lords throughout, and the exceptional knowledge of the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, which has been brought to our assistance in our work on this Bill in this House. We have improved the Bill. I am much obliged to all concerned and, with those noble Lords who have already spoken on this point, I wish this Bill well in the job that it has to do in improving the efficiency and the conditions in the docks.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.