§ 2.6 p.m.
§ LORD HARLECHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their policy with regard to the sale of arms to the United States of America; and, in particular, what restrictions are imposed as to the type of weapons supplied and as to their use after they have been sold.]
§ THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE FOR THE ROYAL AIR FORCE (LORD SHACKLETON)My Lords following the arrangements made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence with the United States Defense Secretary in February this year for the purchase of F111A aircraft, in which provision was made for the reciprocal sales of British defence equipment and supplies for military purposes, it is our intention to promote the sale of our equipment to the maximum extent possible. The agreement provided for the United States Department of Defence to search out items of defence equipment for procurement in the United Kingdom and we are hoping to get the first list of items this month. In the meantime we have been sending details of many items of British equipment to the United States for their consideration. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said in another place on July 12, Her Majesty's Government do not place any restrictions or conditions, for example as to future use or destination, on any arms sold to the United States of America.
§ LORD HARLECHMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. Can he tell me, then, whether the policy that 1056 was outlined by the Secretary of State for Defence on June 23 has been superseded? That was the one which indicated that Her Majesty's Government would not, in certain circumstances, sell particular arms to the United States if it was thought that they would be used in Vietnam.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I do not think that I can add anything to the statement of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place on July 12, and I think the position is made perfectly clear there.
§ LORD HARLECHMy Lords, I do not think that it is made very clear, if I may say so. Can we have a quite clear, straightforward answer? Are Her Majesty's Government prepared to sell any arms to the United States for which they ask, irrespective of whether or not they are to be used in Vietnam?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I gave the answer in my first reply. I will repeat it to the noble Lord. What I said was that we
do not place any restrictions or conditions, for example as to future use or destination, on any arms sold to the United States of America.
§ LORD HARLECHYes, my Lords, but that is with regard to the arms that have already been sold. If the United States ask for particular arms, the Secretary of State for Defence rather indicated that there would first of all be a screening of these demands to see whether they might be for arms that could be used in Vietnam; if they were to be so used, then we should not seek to supply them. Is that still the policy of Her Majesty's Government?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, the noble Lord is now asking a very hypothetical question—
§ LORD SHACKLETONBut it is a custom that we do not ask hypothetical questions. I know of no proposals to supply arms specifically for Vietnam, which is what the noble Lord has in mind. I can only say that we supply arms to the United States in accordance with the policy I have already set out, and I really do not think that I can add anything to it.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend this? How can he reconcile the statement by the Prime Minister, that he dissociates himself and this country from the bombing of Vietnam, with, at the same time, indirectly supplying arms for the bombing of Vietnam?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, the noble Lady's question is again a very hypothetical one, because I assure her that we are making no provision for bombing in Vietnam.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLIs the noble Lord saying that these arms can be used for the bombing of Vietnam? What he is being asked is, I think, to give a direct negative now and to say that this country will not provide arms directly, or indirectly through the United States, for the bombing of Vietnam?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, it was the noble Lady who referred to supplying arms for the bombing of Vietnam. I said nothing about it at all, nor have I suggested that we are supplying arms for that purpose.
LORD REAMy Lords, would the noble Minister agree that there has been a change of policy? At one time the arms were to be sold with a limitation, and now, apparently without a limitation, or am I wrong about that?
§ LORD SHACKLETONNo, my Lords, I think there has been a certain element of clarification.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, in view of the breadth of the declaration in the last sentence of the noble Lord's first reply, is it to be drawn from that that the reason why, according to previous statements, defence equipment was not supplied to Portugal or South Africa was only that those countries did not offer to buy reciprocal amounts at the same time, which would have entailed large purchases from this country?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I really must say that that is another question.