§ 2.35 p.m.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a statement on their discussions with the Commissioner of Police and the Greater London Council concerning the impediment to other traffic caused by vans loading or off-loading during peak hours in Oxford Street; and what periods and dates were covered by the inquiry.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD LINDGREN)My Lords, as this is a matter for the Greater London Council, I have asked them to let my noble friend have their views and those of the Commissioner of Police, with whom I have also been in touch. I understand that the Council's Traffic Manager wrote to my noble friend last week.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, while being grateful to my noble friend for his trouble, is he aware that I found the answer from the Greater London Council quite incredible? May I ask my noble friend whether he really and truly believes the statement that in Oxford Street, Regent Street and Bond Street no undue difficulty to vehicles is caused by goods vehicles both loading and unloading?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, it all depends on the interpretation one puts on the word "undue". There is most certainly difficulty, but I am assured by the Traffic Manager of the Greater London Council that there is continuous 1132 supervision and no vehicle is on the spot for more than five minutes without being observed, or under observation.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, the noble Lord said this was a matter which was the responsibility of the Greater London Council. Am I to take it that the Ministry of Transport disclaim all responsibility for traffic conditions in Oxford Street?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, Parliament and the Government of which the noble Viscount was a distinguished member transferred this responsibility from the Minister of Transport to the Greater London Council. Under the Act, part of which he assisted through this House, the Minister has only reserve powers. I understand that reserve powers mean that the Minister can step in only if he can prove that in fact the Greater London Council has fallen down on the job, and we are not in that position at the moment.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I am very serious about this. Is the noble Lord aware that on December 13 I hope we shall be able to prove to him that the Greater London Council has fallen down on the job? But may I ask him whether he is aware that statements like this do a great deal of harm? Does he really believe we are going to be fobbed off with something which is quite untrue? This congestion does exist, and there is not a bus driver in Central London who would not agree with me.
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, everyone agrees, as I said in answer to the noble Baroness on a previous occasion, that the only satisfactory solution to this problem is rear access to the business premises in the area. That can be provided only when redevelopment takes place, and that may be some time ahead. Meanwhile, the Greater London Council has adequate powers to facilitate the movement of traffic, bearing in mind that there must be some inconvenience arising from loading and unloading.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, as the Government have reserve powers, is it not their responsibility, and have not the Government stopped redevelopment in many cases?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, redevelopment has not been stopped during these last twelve months. What happened in the previous thirteen years no doubt the noble Lord will be able to tell us.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord how many effective traffic authorities there are within the Greater London Council?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, here again it depends upon what one means by "traffic authorities". The Greater London Council is the only traffic authority as such, but of course problems do arise from the fact that there are thirty-two boroughs which are highway authorities, and one has difficulty where there is the Greater London Council and thirty-two boroughs all concerned with the general organisation of traffic routes.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord this: has he not now put his finger right on the crux of the problem—that not a Greater London authority, but thirty-two authorities control this problem?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, there are thirty-two highway authorities.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHIt is the same thing.
§ LORD LINDGRENNo.