§ 2.35 p.m.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government—
- (1) Whether any Report has yet been received from the Stamp Mission to Kenya;
- (2) Whether it is intended to publish this Report;
- (3) Whether Her Majesty's Government have decided in principle to adopt its recommendations as a basis for their future policy towards the European mixed farming community in Kenya.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD WALSTON)My Lords, the Stamp Mission presented its Report on October 12. It is a confidential Report to Her Majesty's Government and will not be published. Her Majesty's Government believe that the broad conclusions of the Stamp Mission provide a sound basis for co-operation with the Kenya Government in dealing with the problems of land and agriculture. My right honourable friend the Minister of Overseas Development hopes to make an early Statement which will explain the reasons lying behind Her Majesty's Government's new offer to the Kenya Government which was announced on November 15 and which the Kenya Government has accepted. I hope to 558 place a copy of this Statement in the Library later in the week.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I am sure there must be many people who will regret that the Stamp Report is not to be published. After all, it is an important document and has a great bearing on the position of European farmers in Kenya. I should like to ask one question arising out of the latter part of the noble Lord's Answer. Are the farmers whose farms are to be taken over as part of the second million-acre scheme to be paid on the same basis as those whose farms are taken over under the first million-acre scheme?
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, the short answer to that is, Yes. The farms will be paid for on the basis of valuation, which will be carried out in the appropriate manner as agreed between the two Governments.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYBut, my Lords, will they be taken over at a value based on the European profitability or on the African profitability of the farms concerned?
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, that is a matter for the valuers.
§ LORD HURDMy Lords, can the noble Lord tell us whether all the European farmers who wish to leave Kenya in the course of the next five years will now get the chance of having their farms taken over, at a fair and independent valuation, by the Kenya Government? Can he also say whether the sum of £18 million, which was mentioned by the Minister in the House of Commons yesterday as the total to be disbursed, is being found by the United Kingdom Government, or partly by the Government of Kenya?
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, the £18 million comes from Her Majesty's Government. Whether all the farmers who wish to leave will in the next four years be able to sell their farms is a question to which I cannot give a categorical answer. It depends on the valuation of the land of the farms by the valuers. It is, however, expected that something like 100,000 acres per year will be taken over during the next four years, and this is unlikely to cover the total amount of 559 mixed farms now in the hands of European farmers.
§ LORD OAKSHOTTMy Lords, is there in fact a second million-acre scheme at all? And does not the figure that the noble Lord's right honourable friend mentioned in another place indicate that the period of resettlement now involved is far too long: that it is at least twelve or fifteen years? Ought we not all to try to aim at a second million-acre scheme which would, I hope, be completed within five years and so give the people there greater security?
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, there is no mystical significance in a figure of one million, half a million, or two million acres. The object of the exercise is, in the first place, to promote the economic development of Kenya and, in the second place, to see that justice is done to the European farmers who will be giving up their land. Without in any way anticipating the Statement of my right honourable friend, I can say that it is natural that the speed of this development should be geared to the speed at which the land can be absorbed. I am sure the noble Lord will agree that it is far better to go rather more slowly and to hand over a smaller amount of land which will be properly utilised, with properly trained and equipped farmers, than to go in for a large fine-sounding scheme which will result in valuable assets being wasted?
§ LORD COLYTONMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether it is not the fact that, in addition to the £18 million (or, as I understand it, £20 million) that is required for the purchase of the mixed farms, there is now an additional £15 million required for African resettlement which is essential to the success of the operation? Where is that money going to come from? Secondly, is it not a fact that the offers for farms have been, recently, so low that they are quite unacceptable, that they are often half the 1959 value, and that this is mainly due to political decisions by the British Government in 1960? Thirdly, if there is no organised scheme to cover the mixed farms as a whole with fair prices at the end, may there not be a breakdown of confidence among the European farmers which will lead to a scramble to 560 get out and a collapse of the economy of Kenya?
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, it is true that, in addition to the £18 million available for land and other development, there is a further commitment over the next four years of £11 million for general technical aid and other forms of aid. How that will be used is largely a question to be arranged between my right honourable friend's Department and the Kenya Government. It is also true that there are many European farmers who are not receiving, and have not received, offers for their land which they consider reasonable. Of course, if one is a hard-hearted believer in laissez faire, one can say that that results from the market mechanism. If they are unfortunate enough to have assets which other people do not at the moment want, or assets which those who do want them have not the money to pay a high price for, then they have, perhaps, to keep their assets or accept a lower price. We do not accept that entirely, and that is the reason why Her Majesty's Government are giving this very substantial sum of £18 million to help maintain a reasonable level of market prices for the land.
With regard to the third part of the noble Lord's question, I hope sincerely that there will not be a lack of confidence among those European mixed farmers who remain in Kenya. They are, as I know from experience, responsible and high-minded people. I think they realise that both the Keneya Government and Her Majesty's Government are acting to the best of their ability in this matter and holding the balance between their own just interests and ambitions and the interests of the Kenya Government and the development of Kenya, and the interests also of British taxpayers who, in the final analysis, have to foot a large part of the Bill.
§ LORD COLYTONMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Walston, has not answered one important question of mine. Is he not aware that this position is the result of political decisions by the British Government in 1960? Is it not a fact that the treatment of mixed farmers in Kenya is one of the things which has built up the apprehensions among the Rhodesian mixed farmers and others and led to the tragic situation which exists in Rhodesia to-day?
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, of course the situation does arise from a political decision of 1960: there is no doubt about that. While Her Majesty's present Government in no way wish to run away from the commitments entered into by previous Governments, it is true, as many noble Lords on both sides of the House continually point out to us, that we must safeguard the interests of the British taxpayer. We cannot throw out unlimited quantities of our taxpayers' money. We must act with discretion and hold this very difficult balance. With regard to the second part of the noble Lord's question it is true that there are some Rhodesian farmers who are frightened about what they think has been happening in Kenya. It is also true, as the noble Lord will remember, that many prominent Europeans, English Kenyans, have stated that those fears are entirely unwarranted, as the noble Lord will remember from the quotation read out by my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor in the debate a few days ago.
§ LORD COLYTONI am sorry, my Lords, to pursue this point, but I am bound to ask the noble Lord whether he is not aware that that statement was made by the ranchers and by the plantation farmers and not by the mixed farmers, of whom 1,300 are now longing to get out of Kenya?
§ LORD WALSTONMy own information, very largely from personal sources, is that although some of the mixed farmers have left, many are prepared to go and some are anxious to go, it is not putting a true interpretation of the picture to say that there are now 1,300 English European mixed farmers who are anxious to get out of Kenya as quickly as possible. I think that would be giving a very false impression.
§ LORD COLERAINEMy Lords, when my noble friend Lord Salisbury asked whether the basis of compensation was to be on the basis of European profitability or African profitability, the noble Lord gave a reply which seemed to me, 562 and I think must seem to the whole House, to be most extraordinary—
§ LORD COLERAINEDoes the noble Lord, Lord Walston, really mean that the only person who will decide on the basis of compensation will be the valuer? Does he really mean that the valuer will not be given any basis on which to act? Does he really mean that the Kenya Government will just wash its hands of the whole thing and leave it entirely to the valuer? He cannot mean that.
§ LORD WALSTONNo, my Lords, of course it is not as simple as that. The noble Lord, Lord Coleraine, knows perfectly well that there are many conflicting interests in this matter and it is a very complicated one. I do not wish to duck the question in any way, but I suggest that if the noble Lord would like to pursue what I agree is an important question, he might care to put down an Unstarred Question or raise the matter in some other way, so that we should have more time in which to discuss it.
§ LORD LLOYDMy Lords, may I ask one question arising out of what has been said? It is this. Does not the noble Lord think that this is really a matter of great embarrassment not only to Kenya farmers but to the Kenya Government? After all, it is essential from the point of view of the Kenya Government that more land is found for the Kikuyu. If more land must be found, and it is, I think, unreasonable to expect farmers to go without adequate compensation, does not the noble Lord think that he has raised a great problem for the Kenya Government?
§ LORD WALSTONMy Lords, I repeat the suggestion that I made to the noble Lord, Lord Coleraine. These are all involved and complicated questions which I suggest might be better dealt with at some other time than by means of a Starred Question to-day.