Lords Sitting of 17 May 1965

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Lichfield
The Viscount Samuel—Took the Oath.

EUROCONTROL SERVICES
2.35 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps have been taken recently to prepare for the introduction of Eurocontrol services in upper airspace and what arangements they have made to keep Parliament informed of the recent activities of the European Organisation for the Safety of Air Navigation (Eurocontrol).]
THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE FOR THE ROYAL AIR FORCE (LORD SHACKLETON): My Lords, Eurocontrol services in the upper airspace were introduced on March 1, 1964. Eurocontrol is accordingly responsible for the air traffic control of all civil aircraft and certain non-operational military aircraft flying above 25,000 ft. in United Kingdom airspace. Under bilateral agreement between the United Kingdom and the Eurocontrol organisation, this control is currently carried out on an agency basis by the National Air Traffic Control Services. In reply to the second part of the Question, the noble Lord, Lord Denham, told the House on February 21, 1962, in reply to a question by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, that Her Majesty's Government were promoting the idea of the publication by Eurocontrol of an annual report. The first annual report has now been published and copies have been placed in the Library of the House.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply
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and welcoming the contents of it, may I ask whether any operational responsibilities have been assumed in 1964 or in 1965? And, furthermore, have any new States, in addition to the original six, ratified the Eurocontrol Convention?
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I really think that those are other questions. I would only say that in due course the report will be published, and if the noble Lord would like to put down a further Question on any of these points I should be glad to answer. I would say that no other country has yet joined, but there is a possibility of at least one doing so.

VISITS BY THE MINISTER OF OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will publish a list of all the countries so far visited by the Minister of Overseas Development, together with the names of any British private enterprises she has visited in each separate country.]
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, my right honourable friend has paid visits to Pakistan, India, Tanzania and Zambia. The primary purpose of these was to discuss with the Ministers concerned the British Government's aid programme to these countries, and to see the work of British people who are helping to carry out those Governments' development plans. In both India and Tanzania she had meetings with representatives of the British business community; and while in India she visited the A.C.C.-Vickers-Babcock factory at Durgapur. In Pakistan she attended a reception given by the British community, and in all these countries she made a point of meeting, at social functions, British people working in private enterpises.
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his Answer and desiring to express my gladness at his right honourable friend's recovery from her recent illness, may I ask for an assurance that she will continue

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to look at the work of British private enterprise overseas? And, in particular, will it be possible for her to visit some of the factories and plants which are providing so much technical education and apprenticeship in manual skills? Further, when possible, could other members of Her Majesty's Government do likewise when they go abroad?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, first I must thank the noble Lord for his good wishes, which will be appreciated. As for the second part of his question, I know that he himself set a good example in this matter; the point is made and well taken. But he himself will understand that the time of these visits had been very short and, of course, to some extent the programme must depend on the wishes of the local Governments. Within that framework it is my right honourable friend's desire to meet as many people engaged in this work as possible.

RAIL SERVICES ON IPSWICH— YARMOUTH LINE
2.42 p.m.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government on what grounds the Minister of Transport decided that the suppression (in order to save a few thousand pounds) of the passenger service on the important Ipswich-Lowestoft-Yarmouth line would not represent a "major closure"; and whether they are aware that such a suppression, besides causing great distress, would be the negation of any sensible regional transport and economic planning.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD LINDGREN): My Lords, my right honourable friend has reached no conclusion as to whether this is a major closure to which his consent ought to be refused. All that he has decided is that it would be better in this case to reach a decision when the report of the Transport Users' Consultative Committee is available and when he has made a full
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examination of all the wider social and economic effects of closure.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, is it not a fact that last November the Government said that they would not undertake any major closure "before the elaboration" of some wider economic and transport policy, and does he not agree that among the lines scheduled for closure in the Beeching Report the line from Ipswich to Yarmouth is, by any showing, among the most important, so that its closure would represent a major closure?
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, so far as this line is concerned there is an alternative route: Ipswich-Norwich-Lowestoft. Part of it is almost a parallel line. But there is the difficulty that there are a number of sizeable places—Wood-bridge, Saxmundham, Halesworth and Beccles, for example—which are served by the first line but which would not be served by the alternative. In order to get the Record straight, since the noble Lord referred to my right honourable friend's Statement perhaps I may read it. He said:
"…I mean by a 'major Closure' one which is likely to conflict with regional transport plans. I shall not be able to decide whether a particular passenger closure falls in this category until I have studied it either in advance of publication, under the special procedure announced in my statement or in the normal course after receiving the report of the Transport Users' Consultative Committee on hardship."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 702 (No. 15) Col. 61, November 18, 1964.]
I hope that all local interests desirous of making representations will do so to that Committee.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, if I might venture further on the second part of my question, is it not a fact that this line serves a district in East Suffolk which will be, so to speak, the hinterland of the large new town planned for Ipswich, which is to have 70,000 inhabitants? Those people are bound to travel backwards and forwards; therefore it is not merely a parallel line, it is an important line in its own right.
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, Ipswich is the start of the line, it is not in the middle of the line, and the development of the South-East Plan will be taken into account when my right honourable friend,

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in conjunction with other Ministers, comes to a decision.
LORD AILWYN: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the words of my noble friend Lord Gladwyn, "great distress", are likely to prove, in so far as I can judge, a considerable understatement?
LORD LINDGREN: Great distress to whom? People living in these rural areas could assist in this matter if only they would use the transport which is provided by the railways.

SOUTH ARABIAN INDEPENDENCE AND THE ADEN BASE
2.45 p.m.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are still in favour of granting early independence to the Federation of South Arabia; and if so, what conclusion they draw from the recent call of the Prime Minister of Aden State for the full application of United Nations rcommendations, including that for the evacuation by this country of the Aden base.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS AND FOR THE COLONIES (LORD TAYLOR): My Lords, with regard to the first part of the Question, Her Majesty's Government abide by their stated intention of enabling Aden and the Protectorate of South Arabia to become independent by 1968. As your Lordships may be aware, my right honourable friend, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, made known on May 11 in another place his intention to appoint a Constitutional Commission to visit South Arabia and assist in progress towards this end.
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With regard to the second part of the Question, the statement made by the Chief Minister of Aden State in Legislative Council on April 19 did not specifically call for the evacuation of the base, and since defence and external affairs are Federal subjcts, it would not have been in order for him to do so.
The policy of Her Majesty's Government in regard to the base remains as stated by my right honourable friend, the Secretary of State for Defence in another place on December 17 last, when he mentioned the extreme importance which Her Majesty's Government attach to creating the political conditions in South Arabia which will enable us to continue to fulfil a peace-keeping role from there with the consent of its people. The eventual arrangements for the base will be a matter for negotiation between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of the new State at the time when South Arabia becomes independent.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, while thanking Her Majesty's Government for that reply, may I ask whether they do not think it extremely likely that in the next two years the demand for our evacuation of the Aden base will grow in what was the Protectorate; and, that being so, would it not be wise at least to contemplate the evacuation of the base in the fairly near future, thereby saving a sum of approximately £120 million a year?
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I think that is a highly hypothetical question.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, at a suitable moment after 3.30 p.m. my noble friend Lord Shackleton will be making a Statement on the Anglo-French collaboration on aircraft projects.

CONTROL OF OFFICE AND INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT BILL
2.48 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Rhodes.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Development requiring office development permit
1.—(1) This part of this Act applies to any development of land which consists of or includes—

(a) the erection of a building containing office premises, or

(b) the extension or alteration of a building by the addition of, or the conversion of premises into, office premises, or

(3) Subject to the following provisions of this Part of this Act, an application to the local planning authority for planning permission to carry out any development to which this Part of this Act applies on land within an area to which this Part of this Act applies shall be of no effect unless a permit (in this Part of this Act referred to as an "office development permit") in respect of that development is issued under this Part of this Act by the Board of Trade, and a copy of the permit is furnished to the local planning authority together with the application.
(4) In exercising their discretion to issue or withhold office development permits, the Board of Trade shall have particular regard to the need for promoting the better distribution of employment in Great Britain.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved, in subsection (1)(b), after "office premises" to insert:
"other than premises required solely to comply with the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act 1963 apart from section 5 of that Act,".
The noble Lord said: The effect of this Amendment will be that the clause will read:
"This Part of this Act applies to any development of land which consists of or includes—

(a) the erection of a building containing office premises, or

(b) the extension or alteration of a building by the addition of, or the conversion of
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premises into, office premises, other than premises required solely to comply with the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act 1963 apart from section 5 of that Act".

The Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act is expressed in the Long Title as
"An Act to make fresh provision for securing the health, safety and welfare of persons employed to work in office or shop premises",
among other premises. That Act lays down broad standards as to sanitary conveniences, accommodation for clothing, temperature, ventilation, and lighting, and authorises Ministers to prescribe standards by regulations for all or any class of office premises.
I recognise that it will be only rarely that structural alterations exceeding 3,000 square feet gross will be required in cases like this. Nevertheless, alterations which do not exceed that amount might have to be treated as related development unless they are specifically excluded by an Amendment such as this, and I think it would be unfair that one should have to take into account something which is imposed by law in considering whether or not a permitted amount of development is exceeded—and that permitted amount in the Bill is 3,000 square feet. It seems to be wrong in principle that the Bill might have the effect of impeding or preventing, or delaying, such improvements.
I recognise that, so far as overcrowding is concerned, it might be possible for an abuse to arise if we were to include Section 5 of the Act, because it would then be possible for a firm to induce voluntary overcrowding, extend their premises in order to meet that overcrowding, and then do the same again. That is why in the proposed Amendment, I say "apart from Section 5 of that Act". In any case, I think that it is reasonable to assume that steps to reduce overcrowding, where it existed, have been taken in anticipation of the appointed day and should now have been completed, and therefore I do not think it would be reasonable to take Section 5 into account. Although this is a relatively small matter, I think that it would be an improvement in the Bill, although, of course, as usual, I do not attach great importance to the actual drafting of the Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 12, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD RHODES): May I congratulate the noble Lord on the brevity with which he moved this Amendment?—quite different from what happened in another place on this very Amendment. This Amendment seeks to exempt from the need to obtain an office development permit any extensions or alterations carried out solely in order to comply with the provisions of the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act, 1963, other than those of Section 5 which concern overcrowding and which the noble Lord specially mentions.
In the first place, may I say it is clear that this Amendment would at once introduce a considerable element of uncertainty about the scope of the office control? Local planning authorities would have to make the difficult judgment, in each case of a planning application for an extension or alteration creating office premises, of whether that extension or alteration was needed specifically in order to comply with one or other of the various standards for working conditions laid down in the 1963 Act. I am afraid that this would introduce an entirely new concept into the task of local authorities. The job of their inspectors under the 1963 Act is to see whether the existing premises meets the required standards, and not to specify what extension or alteration is needed. Quite apart from complicating the task of local authorities, there would be the danger that one authority would make a different judgment of similar cases in different areas. The right course is to make the scope of the control absolutely clear in the Bill itself, and we believe that it is best to centralise its administration in the Board of Trade.
This does not mean to say that we do not accept the need for offices to be brought up to the standards required by the 1963 Act as quickly as possible. I can assure the noble Lord that this will certainly be an important factor, which we shall take into account in exercising our discretion to grant or refuse permits in particular cases where more than 3,000 square feet of new office space is needed. But this will not necessarily be a decisive factor. We shall be particularly concerned in administering this
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control with the distribution of employment, and it may well be that extensions or alterations needed to provide, for example, satisfactory washing facilities or central heating will not generate additional employment. I think the noble Lord would agree that that is reasonable. We should naturally look sympathetically at cases of this kind. But in other cases the locality concerned may already be severely congested and we shall not be able to accept unsatisfactory working conditions as sufficient grounds for granting a permit. In cases of this kind it might make better sense for the applicant to consider moving elsewhere rather than to improve his existing premises, particularly, for example, where these may be houses which have been converted into unsatisfactory offices. These are matters which can best be decided case by case when we consider individual applications for permits, but we cannot afford automatically to exempt all the extensions and alterations which may be put forward on the grounds that they are required to meet one or other of the various standards covering virtually every aspect of working conditions which are laid down in the 1963 Act. I would ask the noble Lord to accept my explanation on the basis that we shall treat very sympathetically cases which are brought to our notice.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I had hoped that the noble Lord would not say that the requirements imposed by the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act, 1963, would be used in certain circumstances to "winkle out" (if I may use the phrase) existing occupiers of offices and get them to go elsewhere, rather than allow them to improve the offices in which they are. He started by saying that the Board of Trade would naturally be willing to consider applications sympathetically. Then he went on to say that there were circumstances in which they would use the fact that improvements were required in existing premises to get occupiers to move elsewhere. I am not certain that this is really the right way of dealing with this matter.
I would have thought that where premises were capable of being improved, it would be a mistake to use action of this kind, especially, as I have said, when a great many of the premises are unlikely to exceed the 3,000 square

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feet mark. Therefore, in the main, requirements for extra space will rank only as related accommodation, as related development, and not as development requiring an office development permit. It seems to me unfortunate that they should be considered in this light. I should have thought that it would not be all that difficult to get inspectors, whenever any application is made, to see whether it is reasonable in relation to the premises in question. Of course it involves an element of judgment; but an element of judgment is involved in regard to every planning application, and I should not have thought that this introduced any insuperable difficulty in the way of exercise of judgment.
I would ask the noble Lord to consider this again. In this Amendment, I have pared down, so to speak, the concession to what seems a very reasonable minimum. I have excluded the overcrowding element, which is obviously liable to abuse. I should have thought that it would be possible for the noble Lord to reconsider this matter to see whether it would not be reasonable at least to exclude this kind of application by allowing it not to be taken into account as related development. I think this is a point that was not adequately considered in another place, and it is one that is worthy of consideration.
It will mean, of course, that where an application for what I might call a straight expansion of office premises by way of extension comes before the Minister, because there has been some previous development to comply with the Offices, Shops and Premises Act he will be able to disregard that side of the application. So it may well be that some applications will not come before him at all, because they will not then exceed the 3,000 square feet limit. I suggest to the noble Lord that we should consider the question of office development permits purely in relation to expansion of employment, and not in relation to the improvement of conditions of employment. This is the case here, and I would ask him to be so kind as to consider this between now and the Report stage.
LORD SILKIN: I must say that I have a good deal of sympathy with this
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Amendment. I feel that we ought to do nothing to discourage the improvement of bad conditions under which people to-day are working in offices. I believe that there might be a deterrent if one had to make a planning application, with all that is involved in the way of delay and so on. I hope, therefore, that my noble friend will be prepared to look at this again, if necessary making any amendment to the Amendment which would preclude the possibility of abuse. I know that the noble Lord has gone some way in extending Section 5 applications, but it may be that there ought to be some more said about related premises.
I was a little disturbed to hear my noble friend talk about this being used as a means of forcing people to get other accommodation. For one thing, this is not the way to do it; but for another, there is nothing said about what is to happen to the existing premises. There is no reason why they should not be used again by some other person. Naturally, anyone who has offices which have involved him in expense will want to re-let or find somebody else to occupy them before he is prepared to go (even if he is prepared to go) elsewhere. What we shall be doing by this means is merely proliferating office accommodation, rather than doing what we want to do, which is to restrict it. I hope it may be possible to look at this Amendment again with a view to restricting any possibility of abuse, but, nevertheless, accepting the principle that nothing should be done to deter a bona fide person from seeking to improve the accommodation.
LORD HAWKE: I think the noble Lord in charge of the Bill would be well advised to give this a great deal of thought, because his present attitude will be regarded as highly inequitable to anybody who happens to be victimised by it. First of all, a Government come along and say, "You must do something about your office premises; they are inadequate", and so on and so forth. Then the next Government come along and say, "We will not let you do it there. If you want to do it, you will have to go somewhere else." This may be all part of the noble Lord's Party

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business at the moment, which is, "Having inherited thirteen years of Tory misrule, we must now take unpopular decisions." They have inherited the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act, but it is really quite unnecessary to take this type of decision. It will only make them extremely unpopular with anybody who happens to be hit by it.
LORD RHODES: It so happens that the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, has hit on a very appropriate period. I can assure him that the Gowers Report was brought to the notice of the late Government ten years before any action was taken upon it. I would say to the noble Lord that this is not a matter of victimising anybody. It is not a matter of putting words into my mouth and saying we are forcing people to do this, that or the other. It is not the desire or the intention of the Board of Trade to be vindictive, and I am confident that nothing will be done in a vindictive manner. It is true to say that if we accepted the Amendment the applicant would be exempt. Then he would have to decide between the local authority and himself whether or not an office development permit was needed. I would ask the noble Lords to think of the confusion that this would cause. Local authorities might have different views.
I would, further, ask noble Lords to consider this point. We are not putting a ban on all office development it is a control. This in a measure has been done before by the Location of Offices Bureau, who have contrived over the time that they have been in operation to move offices out of Central London. I think it is overstating the position to say that this will apply in a tremendous number of cases. I can see that in some cases it may happen that they will be asked and assisted, and the matter will be discussed with them. But I do not see any difficulty about this. I would ask the Committee to refuse to accept this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
3.10 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS moved to add to subsection (3):
"and if, notwithstanding the provisions of this subsection planning permission is granted in pursuance of any such application, that permission shall be void."
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The noble Viscount said: This is a somewhat technical matter, but I hope that I can explain it briefly. In future, if you wish to build an office building or carry out office development, two documents are required: first, the office development permit, and, secondly, planning consent. Under subsection (3) of Clause 1 of this Bill you will not be able to get planning consent unless you have first obtained an O.D.P. There is nothing new about this. The same situation has applied to industrial development certificates for some time now. But the technical situation involves a certain number of complications. Your Lordships will see that subsection (3) says:
…an application to the local planning authority for planning permission…shall be of no effect unless "
an office development permit has been issued. That is the same wording as in Section 38(1) of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1962, and it is perfectly clear what it is intended to mean. The planning authority will have nothing with which to deal. A planning application put in for an office building will be null and void, and they will not have to decide it, unless the requisite consent from the Board of Trade accompanies it.
Unfortunately, it does not always work out quite as simply as that. Both the old system of industrial development certificates, and the new system under the Bill involve the most remarkable complications of fact as to when an O.D.P. is required and when it is not, and sometimes the local planning authorities get a little confused—and who can blame them? Sometimes they make a straight mistake, and, one way or another, there have been cases (and I put this Amendment down because I happened to meet one only the week before last) where, notwithstanding that an I.D.C. or an O.D.P. ought to have accompanied the planning application and did not, a consent was given. When that happens it leads to a situation which is quite astonishingly difficult to unscramble. Supposing that the consent is issued to the person who made the application. He then has a valid consent to build the building or to change the use, whichever he wishes to do. The record of the consent goes down upon the local planning register, and if the consent was given subject to

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any conditions, those conditions, and, I should think, the consent as well, go upon the register of local land charges, and certain legal effects will follow.
Once the planning consent has been given, it is not a personal matter; it runs with the land. If somebody comes along and buys that land, he finds that he has a valid consent to build the office or the industrial building, although in fact, under the law, the planning application itself is said to have been of no effect. How does one unscramble this? If the person goes ahead and seeks to carry out the development he wishes, the local planning authority may serve an enforcement notice. But they will then be countered, under the provisions of Section 46 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1962, with a ground of appeal that a planning consent for this development has been issued. So it has; and the owner of the land can produce it. It is down on a piece of paper and in the register of planning consents held by the local planning authority. Indeed, I think it would be very difficult for them to say that they had issued no consent, when no doubt the clerk of that authority had himself signed the piece of paper which is brandished before the inquiry. What does the Minister do in such a case? Is he to say that, although the planning authority issued this consent, and although land has been bought upon the basis of it, and money spent, and all the people concerned put to some expense and difficulty, the planning application was null and void, therefore any consent issued by virtue of it is equally null and void?
There is a considerable problem here. It is the same, of course, as in the case of an industrial development certificate, and it may well be that (as I am thankful to see) a certain amount of tidying-up is being done in this Bill. I think this would be an appropriate opportunity to deal with this small point that I raise in the case of I.D.C.s as well. At any rate, would it not be very much more straightforward to have in this Bill an absolutely clear expression of what is the law. If a mistake was made, everbody would know exactly where he stood. The local authority would be able to say, "I am sorry we have made a mistake and,
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although we have issued this consent nevertheless, by virtue of the Bill" (which would, I hope, by then contain the Amendment) "it is no consent, after all, and you must not proceed upon the basis of it." They would also be able to say, if the enforcement notice was served and a petition was brought against it, that no person had in fact a consent after all, and the ground of appeal to which I have referred would not be applicable. I believe it might be sense, and I hope your Lordships will agree that it is at any rate worth discussing the question of clearing up this small technical matter at this stage of the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 18, at end insert the said words.—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF LAND AND NATURAL RESOURCES (LORD MITCHISON): With respect to the noble Viscount, I think the present position is perfectly clear, and I agree with what he said at the beginning of his remarks. It is perfectly true that, except in the case of a development order, you cannot have a planning permission without a planning application; consequently, if there is no planning application, or if the planning application has no effect, there is no effective planning permission. It does not make matters any clearer to say that—it is perfectly clear already. For that reason alone, I should have objected to the Amendment. But the noble Viscount put his points with singular clarity and succinctness, and I want to go on to give a further reason why, in this particular case, it would be not only rather a pity to put in this phrase, but would lead to confusion.
The language of this Bill follows at this point the language in the 1962 Act, to which the noble Viscount referred, with regard to industrial development certificates. If we are to correct it, as he suggests, though I cannot admit that it is a correction—let us say if we are to alter it in this case but not in the other—the immediate conclusion is that there must be some reason for doing it here which does not exist in the other case. In fact, it has been perfectly clear for a long time that industrial development certificates issued without an effective planning permission—
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: It is the other way round.
LORD MITCHISON: A planning permission issued without an industrial certificate would be of no effect.
Quite, shortly, if I may follow his own case a little further, the noble Viscount said that at present there may be confusion because there will be a signed consent and no-one would know that it was void. The signed consent would, however, be there just the same if these words were put into the Act, and the only difference would be that the voidness of that planning consent was twice expressed in the Act, instead of being once expressed. I prefer one single expression, therefore, to avoid an unnecessary addition and to preserve the uniformity which one wants to preserve between the treatment of industrial development certificates and the office development permits we are considering in this Bill. I must say to the Committee, with great respect, that this Amendment not only is unnecessary, but would actually do some harm.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I am very much obliged to the noble Lord for that explanation. Of course, I entirely follow the argument that he has put, and it was not one of which I was unaware. On the other hand, there has been in some localities considerable difficulty in interpreting the situation under the present industrial development certificate code. For instance, the town clerk might well he uncertain whether he would be correct to strike this consent off the register of planning consents. Would he, furthermore, be acting properly if he were to strike it off the register of local land charges, particularly if a notice had meanwhile been given by the registrar to somebody interested in the land which would have the effect of binding people as against anybody interested in the land in favour of the entry in the register? There are considerable practical difficulties when you get a mistake of this sort made.
I wonder—although I am perfectly content not to press it further this afternoon—whether the noble Lord would get the Department, for which he also answers, I think, though it is probably not his own, to take a further look at the administrative difficulties on the
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occasions when this happens, to see whether one of those invaluable circulars might not be issued which would put everything right and make everybody quite certain what had to happen. If the noble Lord will do that, I shall be glad to withdraw the Amendment.
LORD MITCHISON: I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lord, but we have done it already, and the conclusion reached, not only by those who advise me but, I am bound to add, by myself, is that, whatever the difficulties may be, this would make no difference whatsoever. It is for that reason I reject it. If I thought it would help I would gladly look at it again, or consider whether a circular was necessary; but I do not think the addition of this otiose phrase would help at all. In some of these cases the difficulty is that people imagine there is a valid planning permission when in fact there is not. Where the developers have acted mistakenly and carried out development in these circumstances, it may be difficult for the local authority to take action, and it may be difficult to ask the local authority to take action; and as the local authority has a discretion it might appear, looking at the matter afterwards, as if there were some doubt whether a valid planning permission had been issued.
But there is no doubt that if there has been no valid planning application, then, except in the case of the development order, there cannot be a valid planning permission. There is no obscurity about it. I am afraid the effect of this Amendment, or, for that matter, the effect of circulars about it, would not be to elucidate it at all.
VISCOUNT GAGE: I hesitate to intervene in this highly technical matter; I am not a lawyer. Can the noble Lord assure me that the local authority would not be liable to a purchase notice in respect of land that had been planned for offices or industry if it is found that, by reason of the withholding of the consent, that planning consent was completely ineffective?
LORD MITCHISON: The only assurance I can give the noble Viscount is the one I have given already; that is, that the addition of these words would not make any difference. One can think of cases in which there might be liabilities

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or might not be liabilities. All I am saying is that to add these words would not help the position at all. That is the advice I have had, and it is my own opinion; and, with great respect to all concerned, I think it is really a clear case.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: Might I ask my noble friend this question, which perhaps would clarify the matter? If a planning permission is given after an office development permission has been issued, will that permission recite the fact that there has been an office development permission?
LORD MITCHISON: I do not find anything in this Bill about the terms in which the planning permission is to be given.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: It is perhaps hardly for me to say anything more, but if the precedent is going to be the I.D.C., the answer certainly would be, No, because there is no mention of an I.D.C. in an industrial permission.
LORD DRUMALBYN: When I was at the Board of Trade and a case of this kind arose, I felt it was at least anomalous and rather embarrassing to leave the position as it was. That is to say, the mistake had been made, the building had been set up and the building was there as a standing mistake. One does not want to see a difference as between the office development permit procedure and the I.D.C. procedure, and anything done for the one no doubt should be done for the other. But to the ordinary layman the obvious and sensible answer is that there should be some power to validate the mistake by retrospectively giving permission, giving the office development permit or I.D.C. as the case may be.
LORD MITCHISON: This is an Amendment to add some words and the effect of the words is that a planning permission in certain cases will not be a planning permission because no valid planning application has been made. That is all it is about. You really do not make the thing any clearer, when you have said quite definitely that in those circumstances the planning application shall be of no effect. That really concludes the matter. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, may have in mind a particular case of which I was told, which he had to consider when he
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was a Minister and the circumstances of which I tried, perhaps in a rather confused manner, to indicate when I was talking to the Committee on his noble friend's last speech on the matter. This is simply a question of whether or not these words add anything to what is already in the Bill. It is already perfectly clear, and to add additional words, especially if you do it in only one case out of two cases, would make it no clearer. I hope that the Committee will now feel satisfied that this Amendment is unnecessary and might do some harm, and I hope we can proceed.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I was not suggesting it was anything else, but I think the noble Lord misunderstood me. I was not aware there was a circular. Perhaps afterwards he would tell me the number of it.
LORD MITCHISON: I did not mention a circular.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I thought the noble Lord said there was a circular which gave some sort of instruction upon this matter. I am sure he said that. Perhaps it was a slip. I will read the OFFICIAL REPORT to see what he did say. At any rate, I do not wish to press it further. I am sure the noble Lord said there was a circular about this.
LORD MITCHISON: What I intended to refer to was a decision. Perhaps I used the wrong word inadvertently.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: The noble Lord used the word "circular". If the noble Lord could tell me what the decision is—not at this stage but at some later time—I shall be happy to study it. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.29 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved, in subsection (4), after "promoting" to insert "efficiency and". The noble Lord said: I think it might be convenient to your Lordships if we took Amendments Nos. 4 and 5 at the same time, as they really hang together. I am not going to make a Second Reading speech on this, although quite obviously, when we are dealing with what is the purpose of the

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control and the formula and basis on which the Board of Trade is going to have to defend and justify the exercise of its powers, these things are near to the core of the matter.
Perhaps I may start by referring to the words in the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, Section 14(4), dealing with industrial development certificates where the Board of Trade has to administer its powers:
"…consistently with the proper distribution of industry."
Here we have something quite different; we have "the better distribution of employment". On the face of it, one would have thought that "the better distribution of employment" was a function of the Ministry of Labour, and possibly of the Department for Economic Affairs, rather than the Board of Trade. After all, what are we talking about here? We are talking about the need to provide office employment near where people live, in the metropolitan region in the first place, instead of bringing people into London; and, in the second place, in other parts of the country rather than bringing them down to the South-East. I think that is the general purpose.
I do not foresee any great movement of population away from the South-East as a result of this control, for one reason because, according to the Location of Offices Bureau Report, three-quarters of the firms who have moved out of London have found no difficulty in getting clerical, or even executive and specialist staff in the places to which they have moved. So moving out of London will enable executive and specialist staff to obtain office employment locally instead of having to come to London for it. I am not going to argue to-day whether the Bill is necessary to achieve that result. But the question surely is, assuming the control, what it should be about. I am saying that it should be about office employment, and not about employment in general.
The second point is that "better" is a highly subjective word. For the purposes of efficiency, for example, in our export effort, some say it might be better if the present trend to the South-East continued. This is a view that is strongly held in some quarters; so I think that
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is a highly subjective word. I personally agree with what I understand to be the Government view on this, that on broad grounds of policy it is better if office employment is more evenly distributed; and if by "better" we mean "more evenly", then I suggest that we should say so.
Lastly, there is the question whether the better or the more even distribution should in every case be regarded as the overriding consideration, for when a department is enjoined to have particular regard to something it is apt to be treated as an overriding consideration. I recognise that office premises are often built to let, and outside London perhaps even more often than for the firm applying for planning permission to occupy themselves. Even if they are built to let, efficiency must be a potent consideration Efficiency must be a potent consideration, in considering whether or not to give an office development permit—for example the cost of communications, the ease of travel, the concentration of that particular kind of work, and the need for that kind of work in a certain place.
But where a firm has decided to establish itself or its headquarters in a certain place and applies for planning permission to build there, consideration of efficiency must surely be at least on a par with the general desirability of promoting the better distribution of offices, if not even an overriding consideration, because, after all, efficiency must be the dominant note in our economy to-day. I would concede right away that it is a consideration much more difficult for the Board of Trade to evaluate than in the case of factories. But I do not think that is a reason for not putting "efficiency" into the Bill. It is possibly an argument against having the control at all, but I do not think it is an argument, if you have the control, for not putting "efficiency" into the Bill. If you have the control, it is, I submit, a consideration which must be overriding, and therefore I believe it should rank with the other consideration already put in the Bill: promoting, as I would have it, the more even distribution of office employment in Great Britain. I think it should rank equally with that and should not be overridden. For that reason, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 21, after ("promoting") insert ("efficiency and").—(Lord Drumalbyn).
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD CHAMPION): I beg to move that, for the purpose of dealing with the Statement, the House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.

ANGLO-FRENCH COLLABORATION ON AIRCRAFT PROJECTS
3.35 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to intervene to repeat a Statement which is being made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence, in another place, on Anglo-French collaboration on aircraft projects. The Statement is as follows:
"After discussion with our French colleagues, MM. Messmer and Jacquet, my right honourable friend the Minister of Aviation and I have to-day signed a Memorandum of Understanding on the joint development of two military aircraft. The first is a supersonic fixed-wing aircraft which we shall use both in the R.A.F. and Royal Navy as an advanced trainer to replace the Hunter and the Gnat, and which the French will use both as a trainer and in the light strike rôle. Both Governments will commit enough funds to enable the prototype stage of aircraft and engine to be completed, and the intention of both Governments is to proceed to full production.
"Both Governments are convinced that there will be a wide variety of uses for aircraft with variable geometry in the middle and late 1970s and thereafter and this is the basis for the work which is to be done on the second aircraft. The Memorandum of Understanding provides for each side to examine such an aircraft in relation to the projected operational needs, to formulate the technical specification and to make preliminary industrial studies, with the full intention of entering
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upon a joint project in due course. Both Governments will commit funds for the design, construction and development of the engine and the provision of engines for the prototype aircraft. Safeguards have been written into the Memorandum to enable either Government to withdraw for reasons of national importance.
"This Agreement puts the seal on the recent understanding between President de Gaulle and my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. It offers far-reaching prospects for the future of our respective aircraft industries and an exciting challenge to the skill and experience of our scientists and engineers on the frontiers of aerodynamics."
3.39 p.m.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for repeating this Statement—and also for putting the "Royal" back into "Royal Navy", which I noticed was not in the original text. I should like to ask the noble Lord a number of supplementary questions with regard to the Statement. In the first place, I notice that some form of withdrawal clause has been included in this Memorandum of Understanding. I should like to ask the noble Lord whether this covers both projects, or only the variable geometry project. Secondly, there has been a good deal of speculation about the British firms which might be involved with these two important projects. I believe that British manufacturers of air engines, either in existence or on development, which would be suitable for the fixed-wing project and quite possibly for the variable geometry project, and, as your Lordships know, the British Aircraft Corporation, have done a great deal of work on variable geometry.
Can the noble Lord say anything in relation to the prospects of individual British firms in regard to these two projects? Further, can the noble Lord tell your Lordships anything about other projects which may be ripe for joint development? I believe that the Services have fairly early requirements for an airborne early-warning aircraft and for new helicopter types, and there is also the air bus. There is a lot to be said for developing projects like these with our

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European partners. Can the noble Lord tell us what these prospects are?
While I do not in any way wish to decry the importance of this bilateral agreement with the French, I would urge Her Majesty's Government to seek the widest area for such co-operation in this matter of joint aircraft development with our friends and allies in Europe. There is much to be said for using Western European Union as the focus and framework of such co-operation. Can the noble Lord tell us the Government's views on this aspect of the matter?
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I hope that I can remember all the noble Lord's questions. I believe that the first one was about withdrawing. Either side may withdraw from either project by giving twelve months' notice. Until June 1, 1967, either side can withdraw from the variable geometry aircraft without giving twelve months' notice. A Government withdrawing will be required, if the other Government so wishes, to complete its work on the engine within the agreed financial limits. But I would stress that we should not have entered into the Agreement if we thought it likely we should later wish to withdraw.
The noble Lord asked about the firms involved. The British Aircraft Corporation has been chosen for the airframes in both projects. As to the engines, Rolls Royce have been chosen for the strike-trainer aircraft engine, and Bristol Siddeley for the variable geometry aircraft engine. I cannot give the noble Lord the names of the French aircraft and aircraft engine firms, but I understand that the French Government will be announcing the names to-morrow. On the question of co-operation on other aircraft, such as helicopters and airborne early-warning aircraft, I would only say, that discussions are now going on. Having heard something of the discussions to-day, I can say that both Governments are extremely keen to find the greatest measure of agreement on all these projects.
I do not think that I should like to comment on the aero-bus at this stage, because there is still a lot of studying to be done. The final point, in which I share the noble Earl's views, is that both Governments recognise the advantages
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which might flow from associating further countries with these projects—but at the right time. Both the French and the British Governments have agreed at the appropriate stage to consult with other allied Governments and to invite them to participate if this seems worth while.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I, too, should like to welcome the Statement which has just been made by the noble Lord, the Minister of Defence for the Royal Air Force. It is a good thing that we should co-operate with our friends on the other side of the Channel, but it seems to me—and I think the noble Lord went some way towards this view at the end of his remarks—that it would contribute greatly to the whole point of this if we could get some guarantee from other countries in Western European Union that they themselves will equip their own forces with the aircraft which will come out of this type of Agreement. A danger at the moment, as we all know, is that the Americans are virtually swamping the Continent by offering "fourpence off each packet", so to speak. If we can get a foothold in on the Continent and if the Continent will buy Anglo-French, possibly Anglo-Italian, or even Anglo-German projects it would be that much better for Europe.
Will there be any possibility of extending this sort of Agreement to the NORD 262, which is considered to be the best replacement—even the Americans agree with this—for the DC 3? I do not expect an answer to that now, but would like to put that to the Minister. I do not very much like the escape clause. It seems to me that if we go into an Agreement with our Allies on the Continent, we do not want to be seen to be too ready to pull out. I hope our French friends are not too worried about this escape clause.
Finally, as between the airframe and engines, I am glad to hear that both Bristols and Rolls Royce are to be given contracts. I am sorry that only B.A.C. are to be chosen for the airframes, but at least that is something. I was worried by the original Statement that our part of the contract was going to be entirely related to engines. Shall we be making a few airframes, and the French making a few airframes, or shall we do a part

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of the airframe and the French another part? If the answer to this cannot be given, I shall understand. So long as our own airframe constructors have a very good part in this, that to my mind is what really matters. Finally, will our technological and inventive brains—which, after all, are our biggest assets in this country—be put to full use in this matter?
LORD SHACKLETON: I hope, again, that I can remember all the noble Earl's points. If I cannot, I will see that his views, particularly in relation to other aircraft projects, are fully taken into account. I think that it is necessary to set this Agreement in the future against the spirit in which it is signed. I would again emphasise that there is absolutely no doubt that both the French Government and Her Majesty's Government are determined to make this a success. There is a very great future for our respective countries and for our aircraft industries. I am quite sure that we have entered into this Agreement with a firm determination to go through with it. It seems to be only prudent to leave escape clauses according to how the situation develops, but we are very confident that this is as near a certainty as one can find. It will cover a wide range of operations. There will be the question of replacing in the late 'seventies the Lightning and the Buccaneer, not to mention the trainers, the Gnat and the Hunter. Particular emphasis has been put on engine development in order to get on with that. This is really a first requirement. I have already dealt briefly with the possibility of co-operating with other countries.
We are very confident that, for the same reason that we have the need for these aircraft, other countries will have the need, and that they will be tailored to a wide international need. Whatever the noble Lord may have said about competition from across the Atlantic, I share his confidence that British and French skill, in co-operation and, above all, sharing the research and development costs—which is such a big factor in these matters, and which was part of the tragedy of the earlier aircraft deals—will be fully competitive. The noble Lord also asked me some questions about the contracting arrangements. The Agreement
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has been signed only to-day, and I would rather not go into it beyond saying that this is already a matter of direct consultation, in order to ensure the best arrangements that will suit the contractors of both countries.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, is the noble Lord able to give any information about the rough timetable? He spoke of the late 1970s in regard to variable geometry. Is the time for the trainer rather shorter than that, or is this just a very general idea?
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, there has always been the problem of matching the time scales of both countries. The French want the strike trainer by 1970 and will take the first production run. We hope to be taking production of the strike trainer in 1973–74. Of the variable geometry aircraft I would only say that we hope it will come in in the second half of the 1970s. I am well aware, from the days of the previous Government, that expressions like "the second half" are not very precise, but that is the best information we can give at the moment.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, as one who has always been interested in good Anglo-French relations, I should like to welcome the noble Lord's Statement this afternoon, which seems to be another step towards greater practical and functional co-operation between our two countries. It would seem to me, too, that this co-operation should assist our aircraft from an exporting point of view, if one bears in mind that the French aircraft industry last year exported to 59 countries, mostly outside the Common Market area and the franc area, and that of the total number of exports 76 per cent. were for military equipment. So it seems that this understanding with the French Government should assist our capacity to export.
My noble friend Lord Jellicoe referred to the question of other projects. May I ask the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, whether the question of the joint production of the Alouette helicopter was raised in the discussion, or whether it will be in the not too distant future, because it seems to me that of the French helicopters the Alouette 2 and 3 and the Alouette Astazou are the most

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popular from the point of view of their exports. I was just wondering whether it would be possible for us to co-operate on the manufacture of such a helicopter, as the noble Lord will be aware that B.A.O.R. have French helicopters.
Finally, I should like to ask the noble Lord one question with regard to the co-operation which is being opened up to other interested Governments. He used the words "as appropriate", and I understand that those words appear in the joint communiqué which was issued in April. Can the noble Lord say what he means by "as appropriate"? In other words, when and how would such an approach be made to countries other than France?
LORD SHACKLETON: By Lords, I am not surprised that the noble Lord, whose interest in Anglo-French co-operation and in aircraft is well known, should ask me about this Agreement. He asked me some very relevant questions, but I am afraid—if he will forgive me—that I would rather not answer them. The Agreement has only just been signed. Certainly, we are interested in co-operation over helicopters; but this will be a matter of discussion. As regards the question of co-operation with other countries, as I am sure the noble Lord appreciates—he is quite right to ask—"as appropriate" is a very carefully chosen expression.
LORD ALPORT: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether this form of technical co-operation with the French is limited to aircraft, or whether it is intended that it should extend to other forms of defence equipment which may need considerable expenditure for their development?
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, that question does not really arise directly out of this Statement. But, certainly, it the spirit of the discussions continues, as I am sure it will, I hope that this will lead to wider co-operation and not only in the field of military equipment.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, the noble Lord has given us a lot of supplementary information, for which I, for one, am grateful, but I should like to come back on one point, and that is the time scale for the variable geometry
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project. I was a little concerned to hear in the statement what is said about the middle and, indeed, the late 1970s; what is said about development of a joint project, or entering into a joint project, in clue course; and, indeed, what the noble Lord himself said about the late 1970s. I know that there are many factors here, but I would urge Her Majesty's Government to press ahead with this project with all possible speed. Projects which are undertaken slowly often turn out to be projects undertaken in the most expensive way.
Secondly, I think that there may well be a very considerable market for this particular aircraft, and not only within the United Kingdom and France. But I fear that there will be every chance of our missing the market unless we make real haste with it, and I hope the noble Lord will be able to confirm that it is the intention of the two Governments to press ahead with this variable geometry project with all possible and all practicable speed.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, that is the intention. The point I really want to make is that our own needs for this particular aircraft arise rather later than those of the French. I hope past experience will not be repeated, but if there is some slippage I hope that the effect will be that the aircraft will arrive at the right time, because in certain respects they are scheduled ahead of the time when they are needed.

CONTROL OF OFFICE AND INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT BILL
3.52 p.m.
House again in Committee.
LORD MESTON: I wish to support Amendments Nos. 3, 4 and 5, which all appear to me to be founded on good sense. However, if we are concentrating our attention now on Amendment 3, I shall say nothing for the moment, as I am more interested in Amendment 5.
LORD AIREDALE: We are discussing them all together.
LORD MESTON: I am much obliged to the noble Lord, I am not interested in the question whether the words "more even" should be substituted for the

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word "better", but I think it most essential that after the words "distribution of" there should appear the word "office". We are concerned with office employment. It is a mere truism to say that office premises are premises which are occupied by people who are principally doing clerical work. We are not in this connection immediately interested in people who are engaged in industrial work or in manual labour. It is perfectly true, of course, that people engaged in industrial work and manual labour may have some effect upon the amount of office premises that are required in a certain area. On the other hand, there are millions of people in the country who do not require any offices at all. I will let your Lordships into a secret. No one today has an office by way of amusement or for a hobby; it is far too expensive a form of amusement.
Let us look at the matter from a practical point of view. If, for example, people in Newcastle said that there were not enough office premises in Newcastle, I presume that the Minister or one of his agents would go up there and personally examine the situation. He would decide that there were not sufficient office premises available there, and would exercise his discretion to issue more office development permits than he otherwise would do. I regard it entirely from a practical point of view; and I think the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, deserves to be supported in these Amendments.
LORD AIREDALE: I should like to support the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, in his Amendment No. 4, which seeks to substitute the expression,
"the more even distribution of employment"
for the vaguer expression which appears in the Bill,
"the better distribution of employment."
The subsection which we are now discussing requires the Board of Trade to ask itself the question:"What will make for the better distribution of employment?" That, surely, is yet another aspect of the question: what does Whitehall think is best? I should have thought that it was for Parliament, and that the question ought to be: what does Parliament mean by the expression, "the better distribution of employment"? Does Parlia-
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ment mean the wider distribution, or, as the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, puts it, the more even distribution? If so, then let Parliament put those words into the Bill. Of course, the Board of Trade must make the decisions as the cases come along, but surely it is for Parliament to formulate precisely, for the benefit of the Board of Trade, the question which the Board is to ask itself. It is not for Parliament to shelter behind vagueness, and to allow or to invite Whitehall to ask itself what will be better.
LORD RHODES: I fully appreciate the importance of the considerations lying behind these Amendments, and I am certain that the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, has put these Amendments down in a helpful way. In Clause 1, subsection (4), we in the Board of Trade are obliged to
"have particular regard to the need for promoting the better distribution of employment…"
There are many factors to be considered in this respect. It might be transport; it might be housing; it might be the modernisation that we talked about on a previous Amendment. We accept unreservedly that the question of efficiency should come into our considerations on this matter. We consider it most important that the question of efficiency should be carefully weighed when an application is being considered. I would point out, however, that there is really no likelihood that this aspect of an application will ever be neglected, because this must be one of the primary considerations of an applicant when he is coming forward to get his O.D.P. grant. Obviously, no applicant would come forward to do something which was going to reduce his efficiency.
The most important consideration from the Government's point of view in operating this control is the distribution of employment. I must say that I should think that the introduction of other criteria to which the Board of Trade must pay "particular" regard, and placing those criteria on an equal footing with what is already in the Bill, would reduce the significance of the word "particular", especially if they were in practice to be given priority. For these reasons, we opposed this Amendment in another place, where the Amendments were to add criteria to this Clause 1, subsection (4). I am afraid that we must also resist them here.

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Some remarks have been made about the difference between "better" and "more even". There is a natural tendency in some areas or regions for towns to become office centres, and in such places you would find a pool of clerical labour and the supplies and services which offices require. Although the need to keep this tendency within bounds, especially in the Metropolitan Area, is a mainspring of this Bill, it would be neither desirable nor possible to reverse it and to try, say, to relate the office employment in a town more or less rigidly to its size or population. In certain circumstances it may be in the public interest for the Board of Trade to grant an office permit in a town where a considerable number of offices already exist, while refusing one in another town not far away with fewer offices. But the adoption of this Amendment would make it more difficult to justify such decisions, and would encourage pressure from the towns which considered that they had a right under the Bill to as much office development as their neighbours. I think that would probably be a natural outcome.
This would bite deepest on areas where the labour shortage was greatest. For instance, there are many towns in the Metropolitan region which have little or no office development going on at all, and if these words were in the Bill they could conceivably point to neighbouring towns with large office developments and claim that they were entitled to new offices, too, on the grounds that the development would be "more even". However, I think everybody agrees that the need is to restrain the growth of offices in the Metropolitan Region as a whole. In these areas permits will be issued, as we have said, according to stringent criteria, and the effect of this Amendment could be only to weaken the operation of the control. I repeat, we recognise the good intentions lying behind it.
On the question of the suggestion that we include the word "office" before "employment" in Clause 1, subsection (4), noble Lords will remember that in the Committee stage in another place this word "office" was removed; and yet here we want to put it back again. It was present on the basis that the Bill would fail if, in concentrating on a better spread of office employment, it discouraged
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the better spread of employment as a whole throughout the country. In accepting the Opposition's Amendment, the Minister of State agreed that the Government were concerned, in the Bill's wider scope, with the distribution of employment as a whole. It would be undesirable, we believe, to permit office development where there was a danger that the staff would be "poached" from nearby industrial undertakings. There is enough poaching going on to-day in industry, and enough is far too much. As I have pointed out before, last year the wage drift was 2½ per cent. It is estimated in some quarters that it might be between 3 per cent. and 4 per cent. this year. We want to do anything we can to prevent this pressure on employment.
Another point we need to consider is not only the increase in office employment which may result from the office building, but also the resulting demands on other types of labour—transport, maintenance of building and equipment et cetera—not directly employed by the occupants of the offices. For these reasons we should be sorry to see the scope of the Bill's objective narrowed by the reinstatement of the word "office" I think another place showed wisdom: not only the Opposition in proposing its deletion, but the Government in accepting it. I hope I have been able to give a satisfactory explanation of our determination to resist.
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: I was interested in the reply that the noble Lord gave to my noble friend's three Amendments. I must say I am surprised that he was not prepared to accept the inclusion of the word "efficiency". He made the suggestion that an applicant would come forward only because in applying he was hoping to improve his efficiency; it does not follow. He now has to come forward because he cannot get the office development where he wants it. He may suggest a place to which he would like to go, but the Board of Trade will say, "No, you cannot go there. You must go somewhere else." This he could demonstrably argue would make his organisation less efficient. Is the Board of Trade not concerned with efficiency? Does the Board of Trade not care at all whether office operations are

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conducted efficiently? Would the noble Lord care to answer "Yes" or "No" to that?
LORD RHODES: I think the actions of the Government since they came into office have shown definitely that efficiency is one of our first priorities.
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: I am delighted to hear that. In that case, I suggest he writes the word in the Bill. Let us have it in the Bill, if he believes in what he has just said. It is important that what he describes as the "first priority" should therefore be written into the Bill, because this particular phrase in subsection (4) will become the guide formula for determining all applications for office development permits. Both my noble friend and myself have a good deal of experience of I.D.C. applications and we were always using the phrase as a test phrase in the relevant legislation: "the proper distribution of industry". It was the key phrase. It is very important to get this subsection right. If efficiency is to be in the forefront of the thoughts of the Minister, his colleagues and officials, let us have the word in the Bill. I hope the noble Lord will think again about this point.
Then I was very interested in his remarks about more even distribution. "More even distribution" is a much better phrase than "better", because "better" is a subjective word. What does "better" distribution mean? It means nothing at all. It means whatever the Minister likes to think it is to mean. The examples that the noble Lord cited filled me with dismay. He said that some towns are going to have offices and others not; and all will be at the discretion of the Minister, not because he is concerned with the more even distribution of employment but because there might be poaching. This is a fine message to go to the Pottery towns, with their high proportion of female labour: they are not to have office development. All the women, young and old, must stay in the pottery industry. Is that what he has in mind? That is what the noble Lord is saying.
With his great experience of Lancashire and Yorkshire, does he mean that he wants the old Lancashire mill towns not to have offices because the office proprietors
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might be poaching female labour from the mills? Some of the mining towns have very little employment for the wives and daughters. Are they not to have offices in the mining towns because it may dismay a prosperous town nearby which has already plenty of offices and wants more? In my opinion, the noble Lord has not thought out the important implications of subsection (4). This is a guide phrase, the key formula, for the future determination of office development permit applications. While we would not seek to press this matter to a Division to-day, I hope, on behalf of my noble friends, that we may see an Amendment tabled by the noble Lord on the Report stage to clarify a situation which is not clear to-day.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: Why does the noble Lord say that the Amendments would weaken the Bill? I find this difficult to understand. What my noble friend's Amendment does is to render more specific what is intended. My noble friend Lord Erroll of Hale said that "better" can mean almost anything. Some people think it is much better that more people should be employed in London; some people do not. This is a matter of opinion. There is no sort of definition of what is intended. It seems to me that the Amendments give a very much better—or, I should say, "clearer"—picture of what is intended by Parliament.
The noble Lord suggests, frankly, that he should chase unemployment. Of course, this is a consideration; but I think we are past the stage when unemployment is the only thing to be chased. I would not for a moment underestimate its importance where it exists; but that is not a basis on which planning of this sort should be carried out. I should like the noble Lord to explain what he means by "weaken" the Bill. I personally do not want the Bill to be weakened; I am only too glad to see a wider distribution in the country; but I should like to know on what basis it is to proceed.
LORD RHODES: I thought I had given an adequate reason for the refusal of each of these Amendments, but I will go over it again if noble Lords wish. I was interested to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Erroll of Hale, had to say

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about efficiency. He asked me whether I had given thought to this matter. I have given thought to it. He also asked me what was the Government's attitude towards it. He said its non-appearance filled him with dismay. Well, after all his experience at the Board of Trade and elsewhere, for this to fill him with dismay is really ludicrous. Because really it does not fill him with dismay. This question of efficiency will be considered by the Board of Trade and will be given all the importance that it deserves—and it deserves a lot. It will be done, I can give the Committee that assurance.
As to better distribution of employment, lit is very difficult to put exact definitions into the Bill. Far better to leave it as it is. "Better" is a good English word which means what it says: "to better" means to improve; not to make it more even—that is equivocation. If we put in the words "more even", it could in some cases militate against what we are trying to do in the Bill. The noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, mentioned unemployment, but in this Bill we are talking about overemployment. With regard to the latter part, in another place it was decided that "office employment" should be "employment". I quite agree with this. I think it is sensible because it does not particularise too much. It gives the whole breadth and scope of the intention: the distribution of employment. Undoubtedly there would be some "poaching" from nearby industrial institutions if the word "office" were reinstated in the Bill. While I am sorry not to be more helpful, I am quite firm in resisting these Amendments and certain that the Bill is better as it is at present worded.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 1 agreed to.
4.22 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved, after Clause 1, to insert the following new clause:
Special provisions for comprehensive development areas
".—(1) Where by virtue of section 4 or section 6 of the Act of 1962 a local planning authority submits to the Minister a development plan or any alteration in addition to a development plan (in this section referred to as a plan ') and such plan—

(a) defines any land as an area of comprehensive redevelopment; and

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(b) specifies that any part of that land is proposed to be used for the erection of office premises, or that the use for office premises is among the planned range of uses for that area;
the Minister shall not approve the plan unless the Board of Trade certify—

(i) that they consider, in accordance with their duty to have regard to the need for promoting the more even distribution of employment in Great Britain, that the use of land for office premises is appropriate in that area; and

(ii) that, if they so consider, they would be prepared to issue office development permits in that area for a specified minimum number of square feet of office premises.

(2) Where the Minister causes a local inquiry or hearing to take place upon any objection or representation received by him concerning the plan, a copy of any certificate issued by the Board of Trade by virtue of the last foregoing subsection, or a statement by the Board of Trade that they are not prepared to issue any such certificate, as the case may be, shall be made available at the inquiry or hearing.
(3) If the Minister approves any plan in relation to which a certificate has been issued by the Board of Trade by virtue of this section, the Board of Trade shall consult with the local planning authority for the area concerned and shall agree with that authority the terms and conditions (if any) subject to which office development permits, up to the maximum number of square feet of office premises specified in the certificate, will be issued, and in default of agreement shall inform that authority of the terms and conditions which it considers appropriate in that respect."
The noble Lord said: I must apologise to the Committee for the fact that my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross has been called away, and I sympathise with noble Lords because I am sure that I shall not be able to move this Amendment with anything like the assurance and the knowledge he has in the matter. The purpose of this Amendment is fourfold. The first purpose is to ensure that no local authority will receive authorisation from the Ministry—or in Scotland from the Secretary of State—to go ahead, only to find that the part of the scheme concerned with office development is frustrated by the refusal of the Board of Trade to give an office development permit.
A great deal of money is involved in the preparation of such schemes, and if, as often is the case, a scheme of this kind depended for its viability largely on the office content, it would be entirely frustrated if that office content were cut out; indeed, the scheme would have to be very greatly modified if the office content itself were modified. So it is important for the

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local authority to know in advance that the Board of Trade will give an office development permit for at least that minimum number of square feet of office development that will allow the scheme to be economic.
A third point is that the willingness of the Board of Trade to give a certificate to this effect should be known at any public inquiry about the scheme. This must be known before the scheme goes to public inquiry.
In this Amendment it is provided that
"a copy of any certificate issued by the Board of Trade by virtue of the last foregoing subsection, or a statement by the Board of Trade that they are not prepared to issue any such certificate, as the case may be, shall be made available at the inquiry or hearing."
I myself would hope that no scheme would have to go forward without a certificate. I think it is unlikely that any local authority would take this to an inquiry unless the certificate of the Board of Trade had been given, so I think the question as to whether the Board of Trade would be examined about their refusal would be unlikely to arise. I shall be glad to hear the noble Lord's comments on the point as to whether, if we had this kind of provision, it would be desirable for the clause to be phrased in the way it is here, that is, that either the certificate of the Board of Trade or a statement of the Board of Trade to say they were not going to give a certificate should be provided, or that there should simply be a certificate of the Board of Trade. The fourth point is that one wants to ensure that the Board of Trade do not subsequently impose on the grant of the office development permits such conditions as would frustrate the scheme or render it uneconomic.
So the two main points are, first of all, that the scheme should be agreed by the Board of Trade in advance, or at least at the same time as it goes to the Ministry, and before it goes to a public inquiry. There should be the agreement of the Board of Trade to the office content. Secondly, there is the necessity that the Board of Trade should not then, after the inquiry or after the authorisation of the Minister, impose on the grant of office development permits to particular applicants for development conditions at variance with the original intention of the scheme. I think I am right in saying that local authorities often enter into
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negotiations with firms that may be prepared to take up the space, and that the imposition of conditions after the scheme was cut and dried might involve the scheme becoming uneconomic, and might certainly involve the frustration of arrangements which had been, unofficially or officially, made with particular firms for them to go there.
The whole purpose of this Amendment is to ensure that, where these development plans are worked out, it can be done in conjunction with the Board of Trade, with the full knowledge that what is agreed at that time will ultimately be fulfilled, and the conception of the Amendment is that the Board of Trade should signify their general agreement by giving a certificate for the minimum amount of office space they will allow to be provided there. They may allow more later, but they will at least say, "We shall allow this amount to be provided, in accordance with the development plan", and will not afterwards interfere with arrangements—that is to say, arrangements with particular firms—on which the plan has been based.
We want to get the whole thing worked out in advance to the utmost possible extent, and I think it is important that we should have the fullest co-operation between the local authority, on the one hand, and the Ministry of Housing and Local Government and the Board of Trade, on the other, to ensure that there is no waste of effort in the preparation of the schemes, and to ensure also that firms which have been induced to take an interest in the scheme with a view to going there will not have their plan interfered with. All this needs to be well prepared in advance, and the clause should provide for both the interests of the local authority—which is perhaps the primary consideration here, because it is the local authority that does all the work involved—and also the interests of the better distribution of employment.
4.30 p.m.
VISCOUNT GAGE: I have put down the next Amendment, which deals with the same point. I rather prefer my own but, if the Government are going to meet us on this matter, they are going to have their own form of words, so that anything we propose would be rather academic. As my noble friend has

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stated, this is an important point concerning urban renewal, the redevelopment of city centres—a matter which is very much in the public eye at present, and on which we are to have a debate later this week. I do not know what will be said in the debate, but I guess that some noble Lords will refer to the importance of these developments and to the slowness of their progress. I agree that progress is slow, but anybody who has had anything to do with these schemes will not be surprised, because of the great complexity of what is involved.
Speaking from a local authority point of view, perhaps I may amplify one or two things that my noble friend has said. In the matter of planning, local authorities are required by Statute to submit development plans setting out the broad principles of their scheme. We are expected to supplement them by a town map, which sets out in much greater detail how all the land within that area should be used, but at our discretion—and I emphasise that it is at our discretion—we can further supplement these town maps by submitting schemes for comprehensive development, by which is meant the acquisition, if necessary by compulsion, of areas of land, pulling down most of the buildings and submitting plans for redevelopment to make these areas conform to modern requirements. Probably we make a model of the scheme, though perhaps not such an elaborate model as those we have seen in the Library of the Barbican and Piccadilly Circus schemes.
There are stringent regulations regarding these areas of comprehensive development, because the powers are drastic. It is hard work to make up a scheme which will conform with them. A great number of intricate decisions have to be taken about traffic, on architectural aspects, and so forth, as well as on the financial aspects. There is often a big element of financial risk in these plans, particularly where two-tier government makes it easy to get into long arguments about who pays for what. To reduce this risk, some authorities, like my own, take the advice, at the correct fee, of experts in property valuation who advise on the viability of any scheme we may propose. This word "viability"is a great word with
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my own authority. It is used simply to mean that, whether we plan offices or shops, somebody will come along and take them. It would be a serious matter if they did not, because, after all, we are dealing with our ratepayers' money and the sums involved are inclined to be astronomical.
When we have come to an agreement about our plans, they are submitted to the Minister. I am not quite clear what happens then. I take it that they go around the Ministries, including the Board of Trade, and come back to us after three or six months, or a year or two years, with amendments, possibly approved. There is nearly always a public inquiry. On the Second Reading in another place, the President of the Board of Trade said this:
"It may also be necessary to agree to a very small amount of office building in what are called comprehensive redevelopment schemes, though even there we should have to look closely at each scheme and sometimes cut down, or even cut out, the office content"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 705 (No. 47), col. 740, February 1, 1965.]
If the Minister was referring to the numerous schemes in the pipe-line, I would not quarrel with his statement, because, although it is a great nuisance to authorities to have to recast their schemes, we all realise that the Minister has this power of amendment; and no question of principle arises. But if he was referring to schemes which have been approved after all this elaborate procedure, it would mean that by a simple administrative act, possibly without any further inquiry, he could destroy one of the important elements in our financial calculations and possibly make us unwilling to try such experiments again. I submit that this is a very questionable thing to do.
It has been argued time after time that if the industrial development procedures work quite well without all this difficulty, why should not the same be true of the office development procedure. This line of argument may have theoretical merits, but I do not think it has any practical merits. Normally, we do not want to put industries in town centres. Generally we relegate them to special areas, as is done in the New Towns. If we want to put up a flatted factory in a redevelopment area, I do not think we should expect any developer to do that, as the

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I.D.C. procedure would be too speculative. The needs of industry are much more diverse than offices, and I suppose that we in local authorities shall have to take that risk ourselves. But we want to put up offices in the new town centres, and we want them to be built by private developers. We want to get agreement with them because, if we adhere to our plans, we want them to come in and share our financial burdens and risks. Large firms—as one can see on looking out of the window of your Lordships' Library—build their own offices, but I think that, as often as not, the smaller firms prefer to go into offices which they find already built. We do not want either to frighten away developers by the blight of uncertainty, or to suffer from the blight of uncertainty ourselves.
I hope that your Lordships will not think that this is a whimsical piece of "crankiness" on my part, particularly as it was not raised in another place, but I have consulted the principal technical adviser to the County Councils Association, Mr. Ernest Doubleday, a past President of the Town Planning Institute and at present Planning Officer of Hertfordshire, and I should like to read a sentence or two of what he said.
"A major consideration in any urban redevelopment scheme is that it should have a sound economic basis, and it is my experience, in the fourteen urban renewal schemes we have on hand in this county, that offices form a very large part of the economic appraisal of a redevelopment scheme. The present Bill seems to be drawn up on the basis that even after a comprehensive development plan had been approved by the Minister of Housing and Local Government, permission would still have to be sought for an office development permit from the Board of Trade and the granting or otherwise of a permit for any scheme could make or mar the success of that redevelopment scheme. The consequences upon the town could be most damaging if a hole is knocked in the bottom of the economics of the central area redevelopment scheme. I should have thought that it should be possible for the Minister of Housing and Local Government to approve a comprehensive redevelopment scheme and to pick up and cover the point of the office development permits so that independent action was not thereafter necessary, placing the Minister's approval and the redevelopment scheme at risk."
This is what I have tried to cover in my Amendment. I have to meet the Government's desire for a new look. In my Amendment (and I apologise for
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referring to it in advance) I have made it applicable only to schemes approved after the passing of this Bill. I am not suggesting that the Board of Trade should be excluded altogether from operating within an area of comprehensive redevelopment. I am suggesting that their broad directive should be incorporated in the ministerial approval of the scheme, and should hold good without further interference, at least until the quinquennial review. I appreciate that this would deprive the Board of Trade of the absolute flexibility of control. But what is planning except a restriction of absolute flexibility? If you are going to have absolute flexibility, it is tantamount to saying that you do not believe in planning.
I am told that there are some 400 urban development schemes at present being undertaken and in various stages of preparation and completion. I do not know how many of these are in the areas scheduled in the Bill, and I do not know how many are dependent for their financial structure on an office content. It may be that there are some schemes which are financially viable without office or industrial content. If there are, then other issues would arise; because, clearly, you cannot offer no work to a population without encouraging commuting, a matter about which the noble Lord, Lord Rhodes, spoke so eloquently a few days ago. If you deprive people of local employment, then they must go elsewhere for their work.
I hope that the Government may go some way to help us in this matter; and this does not mean merely giving comforting assurances. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, who I regret is no longer here, went out of his way on Second Reading to warn the Government that this Bill, unless administered with great skill, might have effects very different from what they anticipate. It might have a sort of ossifying effect. It might mean that offices which ought to be improved are not improved, and it might mean that industries which ought to be moved would not be moved. I do not think it will have an ossifying effect on local authorities themselves. I think that anybody who has anything to do with these schemes realises what a tremendous amount of work and grind they

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entail. To get one of these schemes into a mature state will probably take five years from the time it is conceived. In these days of high rates and stringent finance, and at a time when there is considerable reform in the air, or talked about, it is so easy just to put it off for another year or two. I am afraid that this is what will happen if nothing is done to help local authorities in this way. Whatever may be said in the debate on Wednesday, I think we shall have a position where local authorities will be encouraged to do nothing. I support my noble friend's Amendment.
4.45 p.m.
LORD MITCHISON: I, too, hope and believe that we shall have an exceedingly interesting debate on urban development when we come to it. While I quite recognise that, to some extent, broad questions of ordinary development are involved in these Amendments, I regard them as raising a point of method rather than any point of principle. One must, I think, remember that if this Bill is to work at all, the close co-operation that your Lordships now see between my noble friend on my right and myself must be more than reflected—it must be lodged into a continuous co-operation between the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Housing and Local Government. The practice of industry and industrial development certificates is not irrelevant, because in that field there is the same need for co-operation. The co-operation, in fact, has been practised for many years now, and, as regards the kind of point we are discussing today, I think without any serious complaint.
Let me see, first of all, what this Amendment—that is, the Amendment we are first discussing—proposes. It proposes that the Board of Trade, as a precondition to the approval of the Minister of Housing and Local Government, should certify not only that the use of land for office premises is appropriate in the area, but also that a specified minimum number of square feet of office floor space will be allowed. One has to remember that there is a considerable difference between the task that is put upon the Board of Trade when they have to consider an application for a term of that kind and the duty laid on the Minister of Housing and Local Government
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when he has to consider a comprehensive development area scheme. On the question of time, for instance, a comprehensive development area scheme may well be a matter of several years in its performance. It need not be, and, as I understand it, is not, in a case of that kind, usually approved in detail. It is therefore possible for modifications to be made in the comprehensive development area scheme, provided that the substantial uses are kept to.
The scheme itself must be a plan to deal with an area that requires special treatment (I say this to the noble Viscount, Lord Gage)—and I quote from Section 4 of the 1962 Act—
"for the purpose of providing for the relocation of population or industry"—
then there are set out other instances—
"and for any other purpose specified in the plan."
It is a special area, and the treatment of it involves questions going beyond the usual responsibilities of a local authority, as I see it, however important those may be. In all cases, I should have thought, and certainly in most, it will raise questions of national importance, and it is therefore treated specially in the Act, and is, of course, subject to the approval of the Minister of Housing and Local Government, who is the right Minister for that purpose.
What in fact happens in all these cases is that, where industry is concerned, the Ministry of Housing and Local Government at present consults, and is bound to consult, with the Board of Trade, not only at one point, but throughout the various proceedings which are sure to take place before the plan is formally approved. Not only has the Minister power to call for local inquiries (it is a very wide power, as we all know, contained in the 1962 Act), but I cannot imagine that, in a scheme of the kind we all have in mind to-day, he would fail to have a local inquiry; and the form of the Amendment suggests that there should be something of the sort.
That being so, no one, so far as I know, has suggested to-day that as regards industrial development this consultation has been unsatisfactory in the past, or that there is any need to put it into the more rigid frame which is suggested by these Amendments in relation to offices. I have been waiting for

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the suggestion to be made. I should be rather surprised if it were made by noble Lords opposite, because on the whole their objection has been to the rigidity of some of these arrangements. What they are now proposing in this Amendment is very much more rigid than the practice that has hitherto prevailed with regard to industrial development or is intended to prevail in relation to offices. There has to be, for instance, a specified minimum amount of office space. I am not clear what the purpose of that is. To what extent may it be enlarged? May it be doubled; may it be trebled, or may it be increased enormously? What is required by the Amendment is an unspecified amount. With respect, that seems to me to be an absolutely typical case of trying to make a frame where no frame is required.
It is perfectly obvious that if there is going to be a question of provision of office space in the area, then clearly the Board of Trade must be consulted, and that is what this Bill is all about. At whatever stage the direction is given, they have to work hand in hand with the Ministry of Housing and Local Government as regards the national interests, and also, I would add, with the local authority as regards local interests, broadly considered. There may be more in this than I suppose—I do not know. But I think the existing practice has been perfectly successful that is to say, consultation with the local authority, the formulation of plans, at first, in the case of a comprehensive development area scheme, often in no great detail at all, the detail being subsequently worked in. All that has proceeded, so far as these things can do so, to the general satisfaction of the local authorities and the Government Departments concerned.
I am waiting to know why this practice needs to be altered. What is proposed is this. Under Clause 2 of the Bill the Board of Trade certify to the effect I have mentioned; or a statement that they are not prepared to issue a certificate would have to be produced at any local inquiry into C.D.A. proposals. What is the use of that? I should have thought that that was making the Board of Trade decide well in advance of the right moment. Why need this be
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laid down by Statute? If, in the circumstances of the case, it is advisable that the Board of Trade should be asked this question, then there is ample power to ask them already. It is not necessary to have a Statute.
Then there is subsection (3), which provides that where the certificate was issued, the Board of Trade should consult with the local planning authority and agree the terms and conditions subject to which office development permits would be issued. This again seems to me to represent what would normally be done, and to attempt to fix this into the Statutory procedure is simply trying to devise a form which is very rigid, which no doubt in some cases might be appropriate and in others might be completely inappropriate. I think this is a typical instance of trying to use a Statute to make far too rigid a definition of what is required.
If I might put in generally, I do not think any one in this country is wholly satisfied with the planning procedure. I am well aware that my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government is far from wholly satisfied. I read with great interest a speech he made about a month ago, I think, to the Town Planning Institute. It was an excellent speech, and one of the features of it was that he thought that planning in general badly needed reconsideration, and possibly radical reconsideration. But that is not a matter we can deal with in this Bill. If in fact there is, as I believe there ought to be, some further development in planning, we are now putting into a measure which mainly concerns the Board of Trade (though it also concerns the Ministry of Housing and Local Government) a particular form of procedure adapted to particular circumstances, and one which again might have to be modified considerably where there is a general improvement, adaption or change in the planning machinery.
I therefore feel that this Amendment does not raise broad general questions about whether planning machinery in general could be improved, or broad general questions about the share which the local authority, as the planning authority, and the Ministry should take in decisions which are supposed to be for the common good. I do not think it does that. I think, on the contrary, it is an

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Amendment purely of method, directed to taking particular steps at a particular time; directed to those steps being taken by one of the two ministerial partners concerned; and, at the risk of repeating myself, something far too rigid to be put into this Bill. I cannot see what the real advantage of it is.
Of course, if we were to assume that no Ministry ever consulted with another, that no Ministry ever took into account the views of local authorities, that there was none of the extensive informal consultation which we all know perfectly well goes on in any case of this sort, then the Amendment might be advisable. But we must look at the facts of the practice at present, and no Government, whatever its complexion, could conceivably work if, on questions involving, on the one hand, planning as regards housing, and, on the other hand, the development of industry and the development of offices or the control of industry and the control of offices, there were not continuous and close consultation between the Ministries. To try to tell the Ministries that they have to do in public, in the open, at a certain stage, things which may be quite inappropriate for getting the real collaboration between them that is required, is merely to put spanners in the works instead of constructing a useful piece of machinery. With great respect to noble Lords opposite, this is really a procedural spanner. It would simply make things very difficult. It is not intended to remedy anything that is wrong; it is intended simply to put rigidity where no rigidity is required. After saying that, I shall not surprise your Lordships by saying that I hope this Amendment will not be accepted.
LORD DRUMALBYN: The noble Lord concluded by saying that he thought this Amendment was not intended to remedy something which was wrong. It certainly was not intended to obstruct anything. Spanners can be used for various purposes: they can be used for good purposes, and they can be used for bad purposes. If this was a spanner at all, it was intended to be used for a good purpose. The noble Lord thinks that this would make far too rigid provisions. But very often you must make some kind of rigidity in order to protect a particular interest. The purpose of this Amendment is to protect the interests of the local
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authorities, so as to enable them to know where they stand. It seems to me that it is worth possibly having a certain amount of rigidity injected—if you inject rigidity—into a Bill in order to achieve this purpose. There are the two different aspects of this matter involved. The noble Lord has not really dealt with what I think my noble friend Lord Gage and I both felt was the core of this subject, and that was protection of the viability—that was the word he used and I think I used it as well—of these comprehensive redevelopment plans.
I do not know to what extent comprehensive redevelopment plans normally include industrial development. I would suggest, at any rate, that if one is making a comparison between what has been done so far as I.D.C.s are concerned and the proposed office development procedure, the main difference is this: that, by and large, as we shall see when we come later to this matter in the second Part of the Bill, there has been pretty little speculative development of factories. Factories have generally been built by particular firms. It 'has been the practice of local planning authorities to lay out certain areas as areas for industrial development, without considering very closely the number of people who are going to be employed or the amount of space that is likely to be provided. They lay out certain areas. But we all know that one of the difficulties of planning is that areas have been laid out for industrial development and often almost sterilised for industrial development; they are not very likely to get industrial development. Many areas are like that because there has been a certain amount of competition between local authorities in order to get industry. The whole thing has been speculative and uncertain.
This is not the case with office development. Office development normally, as my noble friend said, in cases of this kind will be made for letting. There will, I daresay, be some cases where the local authority will hear about a large insurance office which may want to move out and may be able to phase its movements and plan to move out at a certain time to coincide with the comprehensive development plan. But, generally speaking, I am sure my noble friend is right in saying that it will be a question of interesting developers who will be prepared to put up a defined amount of office

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accommodation in the full knowledge, in the Metropolitan Area, that, with the great growth of population that we are going to have in any case in this area, office accommodation will be required in order to provide a reasonably even—I use the word again—spread of office accommodation in accordance with the population needs. I am sure this is what is required. Before the local planning authority commits itself very far it will want to know that the Board of Trade is going to give consent to that amount of office building that will make the scheme viable. This, I think, is the centre of the need for some provision of this kind.
The noble Lord says, "Of course, we shall have the fullest co-operation between the Ministry of Housing and Local Government and the Board of Trade at the appropriate stages." But I am sure that it is as well to specify in the Bill the degree of co-operation required; and the degree of co-operation required is the objective of ensuring that within the framework of a particular plan—and I quite agree it can be modified to take account of change of population, and all the rest, in the course of working it out—there will be what is regarded by the local authority as the appropriate amount of office development to carry that plan. This, I think, is what we have in mind.
LORD MITCHISON: The noble Lord has referred twice to the "appropriate amount" of office development. Is this the same as the "specified minimum" or is it not?
LORD DRUMALBYN: Yes, it is, because I said "the appropriate amount to carry the plan". They may have more office development later on, but that will be surplus; it will be all to the good to enable the local authority to make its plan still more economic. And, of course, it provides for the flexibility that is required with more population being available, or possibly certain firms wanting to go to the area, a development that had not previously been foreseen, and so forth. The necessity from the viability point of view is to have a minimum amount of office space in view. That is the case, I think, from the aspect
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of the provision for approving a minimum amount.
I think there is a strong reason for providing that the Board of Trade should give at the time when the scheme is considered by the inquiry a certificate to say that that minimum amount is agreed to by the Board of Trade as necessary and desirable. That will take out of the inquiry a large amount of work, a large amount of discussion as to whether this is, as the noble Lord would say, the appropriate amount or not. It is the minimum amount that is necessary to make the scheme viable. It may be that the local planning authority itself will have to define that figure, but at any rate it is the figure that is agreed by the Board of Trade as being the minimum amount of office space for which it is prepared to give office development permits. It seems to me that that is an extraordinarily simple procedure, and I should not have thought it was introducing any excessive rigidity. It is merely putting the local planning authority in the position to gauge the viability of its own scheme. I hope that the noble Lord will give further consideration to this point.
I am glad to see the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in his place; he was not here for the opening remarks, and we were rather looking forward to hearing him, so that he could give us further guidance on this matter from his own great experience. We are here talking of the local planning authorities in the Metropolitan Area primarily. Later on it may be elsewhere, but at the moment we are talking about those cases. It may well be that if this control extends to the Midlands area the same kind of consideration will apply as in the Metropolitan Area, where you are having an increase locally, you are having a movement out from London and it is being supplemented, and is likely to be supplemented for some years to come, by the movement into the South-Eastern area. There is obviously going to be plenty of office development in the Metropolitan Area, even if noble Lords opposite want to spread as much of it as possible outside the area. There is going to be plenty of this, and what is required is to allow local planning authorities in

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that area to work out their plans in conjunction with the Ministry, then go to the local inquiry and, at that stage, be certain of the position, or at least the minimum position, so far as the office development there is concerned. This is, I think, what is required, and I hope that the noble Lord will not feel that we are in any way trying to put on shackles in regard to the Board of Trade. What we are trying to do is merely to ensure that the whole apparatus, where there is a comprehensive development, will work as economically and as smoothly as possible.
LORD SILKIN: I gladly respond to the invitation of the noble Lord to say something on this Amendment. I should like to assure him that, if I felt that this was an Amendment that ought to be supported, I should not hesitate to say so. But I have considered this and I feel that it is not a desirable Amendment to incorporate in the Bill. I think there is not an altogether clear conception on the part of the noble Lord of what happens in the preparatory stages. It is not that the local authority produces a plan out of a hat, or even out of its own imagination or inquiries. A good deal of informal discussion takes place between the local planning authority and the Ministries concerned before the plan actually appears and is put forward; and by the time it is put forward the local authority normally knows the mind of the Ministry. At that stage, it is open to any member of the public to object to the plan.
Broadly speaking, it is undesirable that at that stage the plan should have become a rigid one so that any objection on the part of the public is useless because the Minister has already made up his mind about it. It seems to me quite wrong to hold an inquiry at all in those circumstances. If the noble Lord is right, the appropriate Minister will by that time have made up his mind as to the amount of office accommodation that will be available, and how many certificates he is going to issue. If that were the case, there are of course other matters that could be inquired into in the course of the development; but on that particular matter it would be useless for anybody to come along and make a case for more office accommodation. I think that the matter should be open—
LORD DRUMALBYN: I should like just to correct the noble Lord, if I may, because this is only a minimum provision—deliberately a minimum provision. It may be right that it would be difficult to contest that the minimum was too high; but even there, I think, as I said, it would be possible to ask the local planning authority to justify that minimum.
LORD SILKIN: It rather restricts, does it not, the freedom of the Minister to make up his mind on the basis of the evidence that is presented? Whether it is a minimum or whether it is a maximum, it makes no difference from the point of view of the principle that here is a plan which is the subject of an inquiry and the Minister has already come to a decision on a vital part of the plan. I think it is not only bad administration, but it is bad from the point of view of public relations. After all, the public already have an idea that there is a suspicion about public inquiries, and I think that the less we give colour to that idea the better. It ought to be completely open and free, and the public should have no feeling whatsoever that the Ministry have made up their minds on anything in connection with it before the inquiry is held and before the evidence has been heard.
Then, to have all this incorporated in the Bill rather complicates the Bill and the procedure. Most of it, apart from settling the amount or the minimum of office development, is something that is normally done after the inquiry, and a good deal of discussion takes place between various Ministries before a decision is given. As the noble Lord himself knows, that is the normal procedure, and at that stage everything is taken into account, including the evidence that has been given at the inquiry. I would have thought that this works quite well; and as to the noble Lord's suggestion that things that should be done are done as a matter of course and will be done by every well-administered Government, I think it is undesirable to the extent that we are endeavouring to get a Minister to commit himself in advance to something that is going to be the subject of an inquiry. I think that is highly undesirable.
VISCOUNT GAGE: May I interrupt the noble Lord for a moment? I am

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sorry he was not here at the beginning. I think that in a way we are talking about two different things. By moving my Amendment simultaneously with this one, I fear I have created some confusion. I would not myself wish to urge in consultation anything at all in preparation of the scheme. What I am asking is that when the scheme has been made and approved it will mean what it says. That is the only thing I am asking. I am asking that the whole value of the scheme shall not be completely wrecked because, by a chance, the Board of Trade at a particular time do not think it will suit them to let the scheme be implemented, and withhold their consent. That is the point.
LORD MOLSON: I am not sure whether the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has completed his speech?
LORD SILKIN: Well, I had intended to deal with Amendment No. 6 alone. I was not dealing with Amendment No. 7 at all. Therefore, to the extent that I have spoken on Amendment No. 6, I have finished.
LORD MOLSON: I have listened to this debate with close attention, and although it would appear at first sight that noble Lords on both sides are in complete disagreement, I do not really think that that is so. As I understand the point—and we have discussed this—my noble friends were really concerned about two points, upon which they have had reassurance from the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison. If I am wrong about that, no doubt he will correct me. I feel that the Minister of Housing was quite correct when he expressed his dissatisfaction with the way that planning machinery has been working. There is certainly widespread criticism, especially from local authorities with the closest experience of it, of the delays and frustrations to which they are exposed.
As I understood the speech of my noble friend, Lord Gage, what he was concerned about was this. One of the most valuable provisions of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, was that dealing with redevelopment. It is extremely difficult to make these schemes—to use the word that has been used
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on both sides of the Committee—viable, or, as I should have preferred to say, financially sound. It is, in fact, a sine qua non of their financial soundness that there should be a certain amount of industrial and commercial development. It is out of the larger rents and rates which are derived from buildings of that kind that the general comprehensive development scheme is financed. What we on this side of the Committee were concerned about was lest this new procedure of the office development certificate should be something which could be imposed later, and that the Board of Trade might refuse to authorise the carrying through of a scheme which had already been approved by the Minister of Housing and Local Government. We wanted an assurance that in these matters all the considerations which have to be taken into account under this Bill would already have been considered inside the inner councils of the Government before the Minister approved the development scheme.
LORD SILKIN: Is the noble Lord referring to schemes which have been approved before the coming into operation of the Act, or after? If it is before, then we must be free to look at even an approved scheme in the light of the operation of this Act. If it is after, I am sure that it will be taken into account.
LORD MOLSON: I quite agree. I was at that moment speaking about the Amendment to which my noble friend Lord Gage has spoken, in which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, will see that there is a reference to the future. As I understand it, we have been assured by the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, that the Government are fully aware that this is an additional hurdle which the local authorities must get over in their attempts at urban development, and that all these matters will be taken into account before approval is given. Further, that the flexibility for which the noble Lord has been asking will in fact enable all these discussions to take place, and that it embraces all the considerations, including the considerations which the Board of Trade is going to be statutorily obliged to take into account before issuing an office certificate. As I understand it, the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, says that there is no need to put into the Statute

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the requirement of consultation and cooperation between the different Government Departments because that is a rule of good administration and will be continued even under this Government.
5.24 p.m.
LORD MITCHISON: In courtesy to those who have spoken, I have little to add, but I had better say a word or two. First of all, I entirely agree with what my noble friend Lord Silkin said. One of the major objections to Amendment No. 6 is that the Board of Trade is supposed to make up its mind before the public inquiry on what is considered to be a vital point. That cannot be right. If it is of importance, and no doubt in many cases it is—if it is the minimum office space that makes the scheme viable, that clearly is of importance—then what purpose is the public inquiry going to serve, coming, as it would, afterwards? I really think that the noble Lord who supported that cannot have considered the relation between what he was proposing and what general purpose a public inquiry is supposed to serve.
Turning to what the noble Lord, Lord Molson, said, I found very little indeed to disagree with, but I want to make two things clear. First of all, I referred to what my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing said the other day in a speech to the Town Planning Institute. Those who want a more accurate reference may prefer to look at the actual speech rather than to listen to any casual reference I make about it. I ought to make clear, however, that I did not read my right honourable friend as criticising the operation of the machinery of planning in the sense of criticising those who were administering and working it. I read him as saying that the machinery itself wanted looking into. Speaking for myself, I agree with him that it does want looking into, but that is only an incidental point here.
Secondly, Lord Molson said one thing with which I entirely agree. I think that the practice of consultation at all stages is working very well. I do not believe that there is any serious complaint on that point. I should be surprised if noble Lords who support this Amendment feel that there is any real difficulty in the matter of consultation with local authorities. I should have expected
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them to bring forward some instance, in some form or another, to add reality to what, with great respect, seems to be a slightly imaginary difficulty. It is said that the Board of Trade must say what it is going to do. The first comment on that is—why not ask it? That has not been answered by anybody. That is what happens.
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: With respect, it does not happen yet, because the Bill is not yet an Act.
LORD MITCHISON: I was thinking of industrial development.
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: That is an entirely different situation.
LORD MITCHISON: With respect to the noble Lord, it is not an entirely different situation. It is a case where functions of the Board of Trade have to be carried out, and care is taken to see that the Board of Trade have the last word—and the first, if you like—on what is appropriate; that is to say, in that instance the location of industry. In this case it is the control of offices. Those two cases are not entirely different. I can see the noble Lord shaking his head. Industry and offices are not the same, but in the respect I have indicated the considerations to be taken into account are the same. Until I am convinced otherwise, I shall continue to say and think so.
If it is intended to bind the Board of Trade beforehand, that is to say, to make them agree, in considering a comprehensive development area scheme which may take many years to execute, to a minimum office space without which the scheme would not be viable and with which the scheme will be viable, I would ask: is that a wise thing to do? Is that what is really meant? Is it meant that in no circumstances are the Board of Trade to be allowed to say, on reconsideration and after consultation with the local authorities: "We think that it would be better to have more industry here and fewer offices."? Are they not to be allowed to say that? Are they to be tied by Statute from seeking a measure of agreement which they can already get between the Ministry of Housing, on the one hand, and the local authorities, on the other?

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No, my Lords: the answer to this is quite simple. If this information is desired as information, it is available now, and nothing I have said is going to make it any less available. We all know the progress of a scheme of this kind and the degree of consultation which it necessarily entails. If, on the other hand, it is intended to make a rigid framework in tying in advance the hands of the Board of Trade, then, though the framework is far from rigid, because it specifies only a minimum, it is nevertheless an inexpedient thing to do. I hope that the Committee will feel able to reject the Amendment, or that those who moved it will withdraw it.
I am not quite clear what will be the most convenient course to adopt on Lord Gage's subsequent Amendment. He spoke to it, and I can reply to it very shortly, or I can wait until it is formally called.
VISCOUNT GAGE: The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, suggested that he might have some different point on that Amendment. I should prefer to make a brief speech when moving my own Amendment later.
LORD MITCHISON: If I have been too long, I am sorry. Certainly, I shall not lengthen this speech now in that connection.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am grateful to the noble Lord for his patient exposition of his point of view on this, which was very clear, if I may say so. I certainly do not want to delay the Committee any further on this particular Amendment. However, may I make just one point? I think that in the course of our discussions we may have become a little confused as between the general twenty-year plan, where one sets out arrangements for industrial use and all the rest of it, with different sectors of an area, and the comprehensive development plan on which we are concentrating particularly in this Amendment. I do not think it is on all-fours, because I think I am right in saying that there is not generally a great deal of industrial development in the comprehensive development plan, whereas, as I said before, one of the difficulties about an urban plan or something of that kind is that land is set
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aside for an industrial estate. Such land has been set aside in the past without very much consultation with the Board of Trade, and that land has remained without development because the Board of Trade has not felt able to steer industries to that area.
This is a common complaint, and I suppose it has to some extent inspired our fear that the same kind of position might arise with the comprehensive development plan; that is to say, approval might be given by the Ministry of Housing and Local Government for office development, and then later the office development permits might not be forthcoming. However, we should very much like to consider everything that has been said and, in the meantime, while of course reserving our position on the possibility of referring to this matter at a later stage, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 2:
Exemption by reference to office floor space
2.—(1) Notwithstanding anything in the preceding section, an office development permit shall not be required for the purposes of an application for planning permission to carry out any development (in this section referred to as "the proposed development") if the office floor space to be created by the proposed development, together with any office floor space created or to be created by any related development, does not exceed the prescribed exemption limit.
(2) For the purposes of the preceding subsection development shall, in relation to art application for planning permission (in this section referred to as "the relevant application"), be taken to be "related development" if—

(a) it related, or is to relate, to the same building as that to which the proposed development is to relate (in this subsection referred to as the "relevant building"), or

(b) it related, or is to relate, to a building which is, or is to be, contiguous or adjacent to the relevant building, and it was, or is to be, development comprised in, or for the purposes of, the same scheme or project or for the purposes of the same undertaking as the proposed development,

and (in either case) it fulfils one or other of the conditions mentioned in subsection (3) or subsection (4) of this section, as the case may be, and is not excluded by subsection (5) of this section.
(7) The Board of Trade may by order direct that such number of square feet (whether greater or less than 3,000) as may be specified

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in the order shall be the prescribed exemption limit for the purposes of this section, either generally or in relation to any particular area to which this Part of this Act applies in accordance with subsection (2) of the preceding section or in relation to any particular part of such an area.
5.33 p.m.
VISCOUNT GAGE VISCOUNT GAGE moved to leave out subsection (1) and insert—
"(1) Notwithstanding anything in the preceding section, an office development permit shall not be required for the purposes of an application for planning permission to carry out any development (in this section referred to as 'the proposed development') if:—

(a) the proposed development is in an area defined in a development plan approved after the passing of this act by the Minister of Housing and Local Government under the provisions of the Town and Country Planning Act 1962, as an area of comprehensive development;

(b) if the office floor space to be created by the proposed development, together with any office floor space created or to be created by any related development, does not exceed the prescribed exemption limit."

The noble Viscount said: I do not propose to make a long speech. Like my noble friend, I must, of course, pay a great deal of attention to what the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, has just said, but I must confess that at first hearing I do not think he did a great deal of justice to the point which I was putting forward, and which had the support of one of the most experienced planning officers in the country who has had most to do with development schemes. According to the noble Lord, everything was going to be for the best in the best of all possible worlds, and what really comes out of this is what is meant by "planning".
It is quite clear that the idea of planning held by the noble Lord, Lord Rhodes, is rather like that of "Big Brother": "Anything I say at any given moment is right, and long-term planning is all right for others but not for me." That is the way it sounds. But, of course, I shall very carefully consider everything that has been said, and also reserve my position. If the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, sees that there is no chance of getting any kind of sanctity for these comprehensive development plans—I am sure that he has had great experience—then we must just reconcile ourselves to the fact that they will not even go ahead as fast as they have already done. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 23, leave out subsection (1) and insert the said new subsection.—(Viscount Gage.)
LORD MITCHISON: The effect of this Amendment would be to insert a new paragraph (a)—paragraph (b) is already in subsection (1) of the Bill—which simply says, in effect, that the control in this Bill is not to operate in an area of comprehensive development. I may have misunderstood.
VISCOUNT GAGE: There would be control to start with over the original scheme, but not ad hoc control after the scheme has been approved.
LORD MITCHISON: Yes, but what it comes to is this. When there is an area of comprehensive development, the provisions of this Bill are not to apply to that area. That is how I read it. I will only say that I am afraid we cannot accept that, very largely for the reasons that were given in the course of the last discussion. It is, of course, an extremely sweeping provision and I do not think we could make the intentions of this Bill—upon which I hope we agree—operative if we were to have what might be considerable and numerous islands of comprehensive development which were exempt from the Bill.
I should like to make one further point in general reply to what was said by the noble Viscount, Lord Gage. I hope he will accept that I say this in the most friendly spirit. I think his difficulty over planning, and perhaps the difficulty of other people from the point of view of local authorities, is that they underestimate a little the difficulty of effective co-operation—I would rather call it partnership—between the local authorities and the Government Ministries concerned. The difficulty comes very largely, I think, from the variety of circumstances in which that co-operation and partnership have to be practised, and Amendments such as the one we were last discussing do not on the whole cure that difficulty.
What is proposed here is to cure it by a surgical rather than a medical operation. You simply remove the control of offices from what might be quite a considerable part of the area where it is relevant. As I see it, that does not really solve the problem. If you want control

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of offices at all, you must have power of control in all the appropriate parts of the country, and you must not be deterred from exercising that power by the existence of areas of comprehensive development which may have been arranged and decided on for reasons rather different from the motives that we have in this Bill.
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: I was very interested in what the noble Lord had to say about this second Amendment, because it raises a question of administrative procedure which I think it is important we should try to clarify this afternoon. When the Minister of Housing and Local Government has approved a C.D.A., say with four blocks of offices in it, will it still be necessary to get O.D.P.s for each of those office blocks? That would seem to be adding a second tier over all permissions. I understand the point that everything should be kept entirely fluid for the stage of a public inquiry. I can appreciate the argument on the previous Amendment that the whole matter should be left free. But, surely, when a C.D.A. has been put up to the appropriate Minister, and after a local inquiry has, if necessary, been approved by that Minister, that must, or certainly ought to, carry with it enshrined in the permission the necessary O.D.P.s for the office part of the comprehensive development plan. If not, then of course who dare go ahead?
By definition the scheme is a comprehensive one. It hangs together, or it does not go forward at all. One cannot risk building the shops, the houses and the flats unless one can also be sure of building the offices. As was said earlier this afternoon, these schemes may take several years to come to full maturity so one may start with some houses and some shops, and then, as I understand it, one follows the administrative procedure and applies to the Board of Trade for the O.D.P. The Board of Trade may say, "No, we are very sorry but you cannot have the O.D.P. because circumstances have changed since the public inquiry was held, and we do not want any more office development in this area." Or perhaps two out of four will be granted and then the chopper will come down on the third and fourth. Surely, when the
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C.D.A. is approved by the Minister it must carry with it approval by the Board of Trade for this planning development, because after all an O.D.P. is only a preliminary to getting planning permission.
Even if our Amendments have been a little clumsy in this regard, that is very much what we had in mind. We have tried to probe the mind of Ministers concerned about the way they intend to administer this. I hope therefore that, if it cannot be explained to-day, the Ministers concerned will take the matter away and look at it, because there is a very serious point here which if not resolved and made plain will affect substantially the development of comprehensive development schemes.
LORD MITCHISON: I am not quite clear that this point arises on this Amendment, but, with respect, I think the answer is a simple one. The only effective sanction for the permits that are called for under this Act is the provision in Clause 1(3) that an application for planning permission shall be of no effect unless a permit in respect of that development is issued—that is to say, an office development permit. It is at the point where an application for a permit is made that the provisions of this Bill impinge on previous planning legislation. I hope I shall not be asked to deliver a general discourse on the operation of the comprehensive development provisions of the 1962 Act. They are quite a long way from what we are considering at the moment. Surely, that is a sufficient and complete answer to it.
LORD SILKIN: Would the noble Viscount explain his Amendment? To me, it is not very clear. What he is saying is that the permit shall not be required in certain circumstances: first, if there is a development plan which has been approved; and, secondly, if the area does not exceed the prescribed exemption limit. If it does not exceed the prescribed exemption limit, no permit is required in any event under this Bill, whether it is in a proposed development area or not. Is it necessary to say this once more? I am just reading the Amendment literally.
VISCOUNT GAGE: I am simply adopting the verbiage of this Bill as printed, and putting my own amendment, which is paragraph (a), in advance of what the Bill states. Really, it is simply to make

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the thing run. I put my Amendment down as a new paragraph to the Government's proposals, and that is why those references are made in the second part of it. It simply quotes what the Bill says to make the clause run.
LORD SILKIN: I cannot see that it is any better. Really, it is more restrictive than the words that are in the Bill as it stands, because the noble Viscount is making it a condition that it must be in an area where there is a development plan, whereas in the clause as it stands there is no such condition. There is no permit required, in any case, where the area is below the prescribed limit in the Bill. I do not know why the noble Viscount wants to make it more restrictive.
VISCOUNT GAGE: I am sorry; I did not make my meaning clear. In drafting this Amendment I had to take account of what the Bill said. The part that the noble Lord is quoting from stands in the original Bill. My Amendment comes in a little before it to make the thing run. I have retained paragraph (b) so that that wording remains in the Bill. That is the explanation of that.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
5.45 p.m.
LORD ERROLL OF HALE LORD ERROLL OF HALE moved, in subsection (1), after "application for" to insert:
"the replacement (upon the same site as those being replaced) of office premises which were in existence on 5th November, 1964, which whether before or after that date are destroyed or damaged by fire,".
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 8 standing in my name on the Order Paper, and I should explain to the Committee that there is a small drafting error, for which I apologise. At the end there should be added the words "or for". These words do not alter the sense in any way: they mean merely that, if the Committee accept the Amendment, it will fit properly into its place in the Bill. After nearly three hours of debate, the Government have not seen fit to concede any of the admirable Amendments put forward by noble Members of this Committee, and, as this is my first dip into the bran tub, I hope that I may be successful and draw out a small prize.
This Amendment deals with a small but important matter—namely, those
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cases where offices are destroyed by fire. The occurrence is tragic enough, in all conscience, in that not only are the premises destroyed but valuable records are probably destroyed with them, and important businesses are utterly disrupted. Let us hope that the fire has taken place outside working hours, with no worse a consequence to the employees than that they are deprived for the time being of their employment. In such cases—fortunately, relatively rare—it is, of course, of the greatest importance to get busy as quickly as possible with the rebuilding of the premises. That is why I have tabled this Amendment. It is to ensure that there is no delay while an application is made for an office development certificate.
I can understand that some zealot at the Board of Trade might say, "This is a wonderful opportunity to squeeze this particular office out of the centre of London, and to get it down to Reading, or Southampton", or somewhere else. But I suggest that in these cases that would be imposing an intolerable hardship on the occupiers of the office, and, equally, if the tenants are not the same as the owner, on the owner—who, in letting off floors of office space, may have incurred contractual obligations which will compel him to find alternative office accommodation for his tenants in the event of the accommodation already provided becoming unsuitable or untenantable, as would be the case in the event of a fire. It would therefore seem only reasonable, in equity, to give exemption in such cases, and I hope that the Amendment will be accepted.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 25, after "for" insert the said words.—(Lord Erroll of Hale.)
LORD RHODES: I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Erroll of Hale, that I am absolutely champing at the bit to make a concession and accept an Amendment. If we can gallop through the next two, I am prepared to say that I am very well disposed towards the next but one. But, before I go on any further, I cannot refrain from a comment on the reference to me made by the noble Viscount, Lord Gage, as the "Big Brother" of planning. My goodness! if George Orwell had been in a position to comment on the situation as he would see it here this afternoon,

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there is no question but that he would consider that many of his prophecies were going wrong.
However, the noble Lord has put down this Amendment. I do not myself know much about fires. Although I have been in business for 45 years, I have not had any fires, and so I cannot speak with as much knowledge of this subject as, perhaps, other noble Lords can. Nevertheless, this is an Amendment which was thoroughly debated during the Committee stage in another place. It is a control which is linked, in the same way as the industrial development certificate is, with the planning control, and an office development permit will be required for rebuilding fire-damaged premises if, and only if, the work comes within the meaning of "development" in the Town and Country Planning Act, 1962, and therefore requires planning permission. I have an explanation ready, if noble Lords should ask me what it means; but I hope that they will not do so. Planning permission would not be needed in the case of building operations which affected only the interior of the building and did not materially affect its external appearance.
May I say, in all seriousness, that the Board of Trade will normally be very sympathetic towards an application for a permit to restore a building destroyed or severely damaged by fire, and would in general expect to grant an office development permit for rebuilding to the same amount of floor space. We could not go so far as to say that an office development permit will never be refused in these circumstances, because there might be cases where the site was ripe for other development (for example, a reversion to residential use) at the time of the fire—and it would be undesirable to continue office use. Even when a permit is refused, the right to rebuild is only postponed, because of the temporary nature of the Bill, and not lost altogether. I feel that we cannot give way on this, and I would ask the noble Lord if he would be kind enough to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD HAWKE: I think there is a little more in this than meets the eye. I am a director of a small insurance company, but I have not taken expert advice on this particular point. I should like
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the noble Lord to take expert advice through the Fire Offices Association before the next stage of this Bill, because, if the offices have been insured, it might in many cases be cheaper to rebuild on the same site because the foundations have not been destroyed. If the owner has been told that he cannot rebuild on that site, what is his claim going to be? Is it going to be for the total amount, including the foundations, or not? He has not lost the foundations; they are there; but he has been told that he must not put a new building on these foundations. These are technical insurance points and I should like the noble Lord to take really expert advice on this aspect before the next stage.
LORD RHODES: I do not think I need take expert advice on this, because I was always well covered in my business with insurance and I understand about replacement value and the type of insurance you are able to effect, even assuming that the foundations are going to be intact, and so on. It is a risk you take. I do not think I need any more advice on this; but I would venture to give a little in the hope that this Amendment is speedily disposed of.
LORD HAWKE: I hope the noble Lord will withdraw what he has said, if only because only a rash man says that he never needs advice.
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: I was going to add that comment myself. I hope that the noble Lord will look at this matter with the great wisdom he already possesses—his self-confessed wisdom—to see whether there is not a very substantial point in what my noble friend has said; because, on reflection, I think he will find it is a matter that deserves further study. I was glad to hear that applications for office development permits in respect of premises destroyed or damaged by fire will be looked at sympathetically. I shall be happy to withdraw my Amendment on condition that the noble Lord undertakes that they will be looked at not only sympathetically but speedily. May we have an assurance that this matter will be looked at quickly and not delayed over a period of months while the inter-departmental co-ordination, of which we have heard so much, is taking place?
LORD SILKIN: I do not think that it would be right for the owner to have an absolute right to rebuild without any question of a permit, because he would still have to get planning permission, especially if there were any question of alteration of the external appearance. But I think a number of factors may arise. For instance there may be a non-conforming user, and perhaps it would be very undesirable that the user of this particular site as office premises should be continued. In such cases it might be fortunate that there has been a fire. I think that the noble Lord should be satisfied with the assurance that in normal cases the Board would expect to grant a permit. The person who suffered the fire might be a lessee, and there might be a covenant to rebuild. He would be in a very difficult position if he were not allowed to rebuild. Or he might be under obligation to his tenants to do something.
All these are factors which I am sure any President of the Board of Trade would take fully into consideration. But I can conceive of circumstances where it might be desirable that rebuilding should not take place, and therefore I think it would be wrong that there should be a binding obligation on the Board to grant permission in all circumstances. I hope that the noble Lord who moved the Amendment will assume that there is some common sense and reasonableness at the Board of Trade, even though he is no longer connected with it, and that in most cases this would not be one of the problems that would arise; although there could be exceptional cases where it would do so.
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD DRUMALBYN: This Amendment is intended to be a helpful one. I am not certain whether there is the possibility of a loophole; but, obviously, in the interests of fairness it is desirable that there should not be a loophole; that is to say, that one should not allow, say, a parent undertaking, or a subsidiary, or an allied undertaking, which is not exactly the same as the undertaking, to put up the extension, or whatever it may be, as if it were the same
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undertaking. I do not think I need expatiate on the Amendment: it is self-explanatory. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 42, after ("undertaking") insert ("or of an undertaking under the same control").—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
LORD RHODES: This is a rather technical point, and I confess that I do not understand it as well as I did the last Amendment. At present, in considering whether the exemption limit has been exceeded, it is necessary to add together any office development which is part of the same scheme or project or which is "for the purposes of the same undertaking". As I see it, the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, is seeking to tighten up the control. He is seeking to prevent a loophole. We think the objections to the Amendment are that it is rather too vague; it would place an impossible burden of interpretation on planning authorities, and it would weaken the force of the existing words. It is too vague because "control" is not defined. Is it by management control or shareholding control, and what degree of ownership constitutes control? One could go on for ever. These are questions which have to be gone into in great detail if they are considered at all, as they are in the Finance Acts. To go into them here would greatly complicate the Bill and would be very difficult for planning authorities to interpret.
We think, too, that the Amendment would detract from the existing words which leave open the question of what is "the same undertaking". For example, we expect to be able to argue that an organisation is the same undertaking, even though it is operating under a different name, if the ownership is substantially the same and it is carrying on similar activities. We think this Amendment goes a little too far, and while we thank the noble Lord for his helpfulness we should prefer him to withdraw the Amendment.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am quite content to withdraw the Amendment so long as the noble Lord is satisfied with his own explanation. I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.2 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved, in subsection (7), after "3,000" to insert "but not less than 1,000". The noble Lord said: The effect of this Amendment is that the Board of Trade may, by order, direct that such number of square feet, whether greater or less than 3,000 but not less than 1,000, as may be specified in the order, shall be the prescribed exemption for the purposes of this subsection. In other words, this is the subsection which gives power to the Board of Trade to ask for Parliamentary approval for the lowering of the limit, either generally or in relation to a particular area. I personally cannot conceive that it would be worth while attempting to exercise a control on less than 1,000 square feet. As it is drafted, the subsection does not envisage the possibility of requiring office development permits for every kind of development there may be. There must at least be one square foot or even two square feet as the minimum, and I do not think it conceivable that the Board of Trade would want to exercise control below 1,000 square feet. That being so I think it would be as well to say so.
LORD RHODES: This is the Amendment that some little time ago I pointed out we were going to accept. It seeks to prevent the Board of Trade from lowering the exemption limit for offices to less than 1,000 square feet. It is reasonable, so without further ado or talk I will accept the Amendment which, along with Amendment 25, will have the effect of establishing a minimum exemption limit of 1,000 square feet common to both the I.D.C. and offices controls.
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: Perhaps as Amendment 25 is in my name I might be allowed to thank the noble Lord for permitting me, as well as my noble friend, to draw a prize out of the bran tub.
LORD RHODES: I do not really mind if the noble Lord thanks me twice, once now and once on Amendment 25.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3 [Retrospective control in metropolitan region]:
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS moved to add to the clause:
"() Where by virtue of subsection (5) of this section a planning permission is deemed not to have effect, then if, on a claim made to the local planning authority within the time and in the manner prescribed by regulations under this section it is shown that a person interested in the land has incurred expenditure in carrying out work which is rendered obsolete by the operation of subsection (5) of this section the local planning authority shall pay to that person compensation in respect of that expenditure.
() For the purposes of the last foregoing subsection section 217 of the Act of 1962 shall apply as if regulations made under this section were made under the Act of 1962."
The noble Viscount said: I must confess that when, about two Amendments ago, I heard the noble Lord, Lord Rhodes, say he thought he was going to accept the next Amendment but two, my spirits rose considerably. Unfortunately I had miscalculated, as I now realise, but it seems to me it might have been a very great improvement if he had been prepared to accept this Amendment. Noble Lords will realise that under Clause 3 of the Bill there are some transitional provisions which deal with the situation that occur when someone obtained a planning permission for an office building on the 5th November of last year but has not yet got a building contract to start building it. A person in that position is not allowed to go ahead under this Bill and under its retrospective provisions unless he also gets later an O.D.P. for that development which is permitted; and it may be that he will not get that O.D.P. in the end.
This is a transitional situation; but what will have happened will be that whereas the planning authority—and your Lordships will remember that we are talking about the Metropolitan Area, where the planning authorities were by no means enthusiastic in granting consents for office buildings—had thought that building in that place was all right and had granted consent, nevertheless, upon the advent of this Bill, the Board of Trade, having been given the new control, subsequently decided that it was not all right. Consequently the building will not proceed although planning permission was given and although in those circumstances probably a considerable amount of money will have been spent on such things as professional fees, legal

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expenses and matters of that sort, in getting the thing to the stage that it had reached.
There is a parallel to this Amendment. It is to be found in Section 118 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1962, and it is the circumstance where a local planning authority grants a consent for a certain development and then afterwards for some reason changes its mind and either revokes that consent or modifies it so that it is not the same as it was originally. If that happens under the present law the person affected—the owner of the land or the person having an interest in the land—is granted compensation under that Act, under two heads. First of all, he is given compensation for the abortive expenditure on fees and things of that sort which has been thrown away. Secondly, he is given compensation in respect of the difference in the value of his land with the consent that it had and the value of the land after the consent has been taken away.
I do not propose in this Amendment to make provision for the second half of that compensation because, as I understand it, this Bill is to last for seven years, and it may well be that it is fair that the person should have to wait for that time, and in due course his land, for all we know, will regain the value that it had before. But in seven years' time the fees that have been spent in the architect's department or on legal matters and that type of thing will probably have been wasted, because it will not be possible for any use to be made of the work that was done in that connection.
Therefore it seems to me that if, when the old system was working, when it was just the planning authority which had the jurisdiction to say "Yes" or "No" to those people, they granted planning permission for it, and subsequently the Board of Trade think otherwise, payment of those fees and that type of expenditure, which will not be very large in most cases, should be granted to the person who has the interest.
I expect I shall be told that there is one flaw in my Amendment, and this of course I realise. It is provided by this Amendment that the person who seeks the sort of compensation which I hope I have adequately explained should go to the local planning authority for it and that that
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authority should pay it. This, in fact, would be patently unfair, because the planning authority would have had nothing to do with the decision. It would have been the Board of Trade, and, clearly, if compensation for this type of thing is to be granted it will have to be paid out of public resources.
It is not the slightest use my putting down an Amendment in this House which would have that effect, and I realise that it could not be accepted. Nevertheless, I believe that the principle of compensation for this sort of thing is something which your Lordships ought to discuss and which is relevant, even in the terms of a so-called seven year ban—and let us hope it does not go on for more than seven years—and it is a principle to which I hope the Government may feel sympathetic. If they do, it is perfectly within their power to deal with the matter by means of a slightly different Amendment, and cope with the financial side in another place later on. I believe that there is a case for this limited sort of Amendment in a transitional situation, where people have done everything required of them under existing law but the law is then changed and all their work is brought to nothing by the new system which is brought in. It is a sort of retrospective legislation in which I think there is scope for this limited compensation provision. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 15, at end insert the said subsections.—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
LORD MITCHISON: I feel certain that the noble Viscount has said everything that could possibly be said in support of his Amendment, but he may be aware that there are fatal objections to it. Let me deal first with the one he mentioned last. The present position is that if this Amendment were to be moved in another place, it would fail because it would require a Money Resolution. What your Lordships' House is being asked to do is to pass an Amendment which would elsewhere require a Money Resolution.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I do not think so, because I do not think it would require a Money Resolution for local authorities to pay compensation.
LORD MITCHISON: With respect, it does, because it affects what used to be called the Exchequer Equalisation Grants—I forget the modern name—and on that account it requires a Money Resolution. Expenditure out of rates has long been disallowed for that reason, unless there is a Money Resolution to support it. Of course, the position of individual authorities varies from year to year and from place to place. I suggest that that is the conclusive answer to the whole matter, but I should like to say something on the merits. This is a Bill which was not opposed on Second Reading, either elsewhere or here, and the broad objects of it have had the support of the Conservative Party and its members, and I am sure that they would not wish to retract from that. Because of the urgent character of the situation about offices, and incidentally about housing in London, a statement was made on November 4 by the First Secretary which made clear in what cases retrospective legislation would be brought in. He did not suggest that there should be any compensation.
Is not the position about compensation for acts of Parliament that people have to take alterations in rights without compensation? Changes in purchase tax is an obvious instance or, to take another case, which does not involve legislation or even an Order, if a man applies for planning permission and fails to get it he does not thereby become entitled to compensation for the expenditure he has incurred in preparing his application. And this is a case where, on broad national grounds, a further wholesale refusal of planning permission is contemplated. It would affect certain people. I am not going into the merits of what the First Secretary said and I do not think that anybody would ask us to go beyond what was then said. Certainly, so far as I know, no such request has been made. That being so, the very short answer is that it is just too bad.
In the circumstances, there is no case for compensation here. I would also add that nobody has asked for it. What they have done is to come along and say that they have very nearly passed the mark and they hope they will get their office development permit in due course. No doubt that kind of thing is something
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which should be taken into consideration. It is not for me to say what weight the Board of Trade ought to give to it, and I do not think it is for my noble friend here to say at this stage. It is a factor; that is all one can say about it.
On these grounds, I would advise the noble Viscount to withdraw this Amendment. I think that we really must not start passing Amendments here which involve the expenditure of public funds and would require a Money Resolution in another place. It is not for a new Member like me to give advice to the House on a matter of this sort, but I should have thought that we were all agreed on the principle that the financial control of the Government of the day, whatever their colour, is exercised by the use of Money Resolutions in another place.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I am grateful to the noble Lord. It is a matter of pure ignorance on my part that I put down an Amendment which would involve a Money Resolution. I had intended not to do that, but to present the case on merit to the Government, who, so far as I am aware, are in control of the finances of this country and, if they accept a matter of merit, can in due course deal with its finances. I do not know whether the noble Lord can really rely on the speech of the First Secretary on November 4, which, if I remember rightly, was a broad outline, and he would hardly have been expected to go into a matter quite so intricate and consequential as this.
I think that the noble Lord is perhaps being a little unjust to my case. It may be that nobody asked for it. Whatever noble Lords opposite might say, under the development planning control in the Greater London Council area, in Middlesex and Surrey, certainly in Metropolitan Kent and Essex, to a slightly lesser degree in the County Borough of Croydon, and to a fairly large degree in East Ham and West Ham, it was extremely difficult to get permission for an office development. People had to put in their applications within the limits of the development control that was set out in the development plans of those planning authorities. Sometimes, they were rejected and went to the Ministry and he said that he thought, in the circumstances, they were all right.

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A restrictive policy was going on. It might not have been restrictive enough for noble Lords, but it was restrictive enough for the people who wanted to build offices.
Nevertheless, those people fulfilled all the requirements: they made a special case; they got their permission. There was no inkling before that that there was to be an extra hurdle imposed. If they failed on the extra hurdle, not apparently because of the local considerations, nor necessarily because of the planning considerations which the Minister of Housing and Local Government would have dealt with on appeal, but because of this entirely new agency, the Board of Trade being brought in, I should have thought there was a marked case for providing a similar sort of limited compensation as is given when the local planning authority say: "We have changed our minds. We have made a mistake. We must go back and cancel what we have already given." I wonder if the noble Lord, who deals with it very broadly, might give some attention to the detail of this matter and see if something can be done. If nobody asks for for it, then it will do no harm; it is transitional only and it will cost nobody anything. But if there are hard cases, it might bolster the Board of Trade if they have to say that, hard case thought it is, they cannot give an O.D.P. but at least they will say, "We will give you your fees in compensation. Here is the provision in the Bill". This might help noble Lords in administering the control that they are seeking.
LORD MITCHISON: I take the noble Viscount's logical point, and perhaps purchase tax is the better of the two. But, on the merits, I suggest that the importance of the fact that people are not asking for it is that they understood quite clearly what the First Secretary said: they knew that they were not going to get compensation, and that it was no use asking for it. It was put as an urgent national need—we do not want to go back to Burmah Oil: we sometimes have them in peace time. That was the real ground for what was done, but I do not think it is to be expected in those circumstances that compensation will be given for this kind of expenditure. May I console the noble Viscount by saying this? I feel sure that if he gave an
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opinion on the merits, it would be as good in seven years' time as it was when he gave it. He will not, I hope, take that as a measure of insult; it is not intended to be.
There is one other point. It has been pointed out to me that the question of a Money Resolution might depend on the position of the particular authority. There is, in fact, only one borough, Lewisham, which gets benefit from an Exchequer equalisation grant. I have no wish to deceive the Committee, but I must add that, in my opinion, that does not really solve the question, because at any time they may find themselves in a position of getting an equalisation grant, and that is the right way to look at Money Resolutions. Anyhow, there is no doubt about the principle of the thing, because charges on the rates have for some time past been considered a matter that requires a special resolution. I say that in an attempt to apologise very slightly in my turn, in view of the attractive apologies made by the noble Viscount.
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: Before we leave this Amendment, I should like to point out to the noble Lord, since he is so fond of the purchase tax analogy, that the Treasury, when the Conservative Government were in office, made arrangements whereby retailers could be relieved of some of the disadvantages of changes in purchase tax by accepting the principle of consignment stock which was still held by the wholesaler nominally, although in the hands of the retailer. So it is possible to make changes to alleviate the burden of tax, and this was in fact done. Secondly, I do not think we should fall into the error in this House of accepting the dicta by the First Secretary as meaning that no Bill may ever be amended because he did not happen to mention the full details of its provisions in a speech in another place. The fact that the First Secretary did not refer to compensation does not mean that we should not insert compensation proposals in this House if we so wish. There is nothing to prevent us, as I understand it, from tabling an Amendment to a Bill which would require a revised Financial Resolution in another place. I think it is important that that should be on the record.
LORD MITCHISON: Perhaps I might answer those two points quite shortly. On the first one, if an opinion had been obtained as to what was a chocolate biscuit for the purpose of purchase tax—this was a matter that troubled the Customs for some time past—the costs of that would not be recoverable on a change in purchase tax involving more chocolate biscuits. That is the analogy here.
On the second point, surely this is what matters. We are dealing with retrospective legislation, and an annoucement was made as to exactly what that retrospective legislation would be. None of us likes retrospective legislation. All of us, I think, recognise that there are cases for it when a clear announcement has been made beforehand of what the retrospective legislation would be. But when that has been done, it is inexpedient to introduce, when you come to the legislation, something that was not in the statement or which contradicted it in any way. That would be the result if we had gone beyond the statement made at the time.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSE: So long as it is not supposed that the noble Lord is thinking of fees that were incurred by those with whom I am concerned after the statement, as opposed to those which now relate back and which were incurred before it, I do not think there is any confusion. I should like to consider what the noble Lord has had to say, and in the circumstances I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 3 agreed to.
Clauses 4 to 6 agreed to.
Clause 7 [Planning permission where no office development permit required]
LORD MITCHISON: This is a drafting Amendment, and it is intended to resolve any possible doubt about the interpretation of the scope of the clause. I can go into the point if noble Lords desire it, but I hope that at this hour they will accept my assurance that that is what it is. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 38, after ("case)" insert ("the erection of that building would not constitute development to which this Part of this Act
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applies or (if it would constitute such development)").—(Lord Mitchison.)
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: Before we accept the Amendment, may we have an assurance that in this particular case the noble Lord understands his brief?
LORD MITCHISON: I should like to give that assurance in a strictly accurate form: I understood it a little time ago. For the moment I have forgotten it, but I remember that when I read it through it was perfectly clear. It is to the effect that I indicated.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 8 [Provisions as to conditions imposed or implied in pursuance of s. 6 or s. 7]:
On Question, Whether Clause 8 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD DRUMALBYN: Am I right in understanding that conditions will run with the development in the same way, as has already been mentioned, that the permit runs? Will any conditions laid down bind any future owner of the premises as well as the applicant?
LORD MITCHISON: Yes; I think so.
Clause 8 agreed to.
Clause 9 [Enforcement notices relating to land in Greater London]:
6.30 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS moved, after subsection (6), to insert:
("() Where an enforcement notice to which this section applies is served on any person, he or any other person having an interest in the land may, in addition to or in lieu of bringing an appeal to the Minister under section 46 of the Act of 1962 as amended by the last foregoing subsection, make an application to the High Court to determine the question whether there had been made before the 5th November, 1964, a building contract specifically relating to the land, or part of the land, in respect of which planning permission was granted before that date for the development to which the enforcement notice relates and which provided for the erection thereon of a building containing office premises or the extension of a building by the addition of office premises, and to that extent subsection (1) of section 177 of the Act of 1962 shall not have effect.
() On any application under the last foregoing subsection the Court shall determine the question so referred to it, and, if it is satisfied that such a contract had been made, shall quash the order.")
The noble Viscount said: This Amendment goes with the last one on the Marshalled List, No. 27. It again relates to the transitional procedure for the unfortunate people who were caught by the announcement of November 4, and who subsequently got into trouble because they went ahead with the building for which they had planning consent prior to that date, but for which they did not subsequently have an office development permit.
The machinery for this transitional provision is extremely complicated. One of the things that happens, or may happen, is set out under Clause 10 of the Bill. That clause gives power to the Board of Trade to ask anyone to give them certain documents for their inspection. The purpose, as I understand it, for this power, is that the Board of Trade should be able to see whether or not this famous building contract was or was not in existence on November 5, because if there was a building contract in existence on that date (and I hope I have got this right) then you do not require an office development permit, and the planning permission that you had before that date is good enough. If there was not a building contract, then you require the O.D.P. and, of course, it makes a great deal of difference to the subsequent control by the Board of Trade to discover whether or not that building contract had been made.
LORD MITCHISON: Before.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: Yes, you had to have made them before November 5—up to midnight on November 4, the day of the speech—and I believe remarkable efforts were made in some cases.
The difficulty is this. Having discovered the information from the person concerned, one must then look back to Clause 9 which tells the Minister of Housing and Local Government what can be done about it. What in fact happens is that if a building is being built without the requisite O.D.P., then in the normal way, because there is deemed to have been no planning consent, the matter can be dealt with by way of enforcement notice. But this enforcement notice is only to be served either by or at the direction of the Minister of Housing and Local Government. I
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would assume that before he does that the Minister will have had a word with the Board of Trade, because he will want to know from them whether, in their view, there was a building contract. If you serve an enforcement notice on a person, that person has the right to appeal to the Minister—that is to say, the Minister of Housing and Local Government. The normal grounds upon which you do so are set out in Section 46 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1962.
But in the case of these special transitional notices under Clause 9, there are some different grounds of appeal which are set out in the First Schedule to the Bill. The third of these special grounds is that you appeal to the Minister of Housing and Local Government on the grounds that there was a building contract which had been made before November 5. What will be the situation? Somebody in the Government will suspect that there was not a building contract. The Board of Trade will ask for the documents, and will get them. They will tell the Minister that in their view—and they will no doubt show him the documents—there was not a building contract. So he will serve an enforcement notice. The person upon whom the notice is served appeals to the Minister of Housing and Local Government on the grounds that there was a building contract. Prima facie the Minister has already made up his mind that there was not, because otherwise he would not have served an enforcement notice. Apart from the paradox of that situation, take it one step further. The question whether or not there is a building contract is, I should have thought, in most cases a matter of law or, at any rate, interpretation of the facts in such a way that it could be considered to be a point of law. On an enforcement notice there is an appeal to the High Court on a point of law, and I should have thought that in many appeal cases, which might be quite complicated, it would be almost inevitable that the appellant would decide that he was not content, however good the Ministry staff, with the Minister's answer upon this matter.
Supposing that the inquiry takes the normal course—and I have attended many of them—there would be the inspector who conducts the inquiry, a

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very worthy man, a very competent man, but usually a surveyor or an architect. He will not be used, I should think, to having mountains of legal authorities and copious legal argument quoted before him. Even if he has a legal assessor, as he might well have, sitting with him this sort of material is not—and I repeat this with great emphasis—is not suitable for a public inquiry. Moreover, particularly it is not suitable for a public inquiry considering the expense involved when, as like as not, it is going to be done all over again in the High Court.
The point of my Amendment is fins. If you have one of these special legal "Is there, or is there not a building contract?" cases, instead of going to the Minister on appeal with all the procedure that is to be involved, and all the time wasted and all the money and everything else, would it not be a good idea to give an option Ito the appellant to go straight to the High Court in the first place? It is probably the place where it will be fought out in the end. It is only optional in my Amendment. If he chooses to go to the Minister and have it threshed out there, perhaps more cheaply, then he can do so. Would it not be a good idea, in the difficult cases, to cut out that intermediate stage and take them straight up to the High Court, where I believe they belong? If so, I believe that my Amendment, even if it is not quite perfect in drafting, at least indicates an idea to noble Lords opposite and the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison. I hope the noble Lord will be able to give this favourable consideration. I think it would be an improvement on the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 8, at end insert the said subsections.—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
6.36 p.m.
LORD MITCHISON: I am bound to say that this Amendment is not without its appeal to me personally, as I have a preference for getting things to courts where there is some real doubt about them. But I do not think it is right in this case to accept the Amendment, and I will give my reasons as concisely as I can. The noble Viscount put it very clearly. The present position is that there are various grounds on which the Minister
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can act in connection with an enforcement notice. One of those grounds involves this question: Was there or was there not a contract? The effect of this will be to allow the person concerned, or the applicant, to choose whether he goes to the High Court, or whether he leaves it to the Minister. I think on the whole that is wrong. I think the Minister ought to be able to decide questions about the enforcement notices on whatever grounds the question arises, and, therefore, in order not to separate the grounds on which the Minister acts, I think it is right that it should stay there.
The noble Viscount is much better aware than I am that that does not prevent the applicant from going to the High Court if he so chooses. It is simply a question of how he does it. I am sure that the noble Viscount is quite right in saying that surveyors are not always the best judges of the question whether or not there was a contract. I quite appreciate that. On the other hand, it is in most cases, at any rate, as he said himself, a question of law. It could be taken to the court and taken, I think, comparatively cheaply.
There will be some more troublesome cases, because there may be, if I read the Bill rightly, oral contracts, and, therefore, there may be questions of evidence, and so on. I think one must stick to the principle that in this kind of case, dealing with enforcement notices under planning, dealing with a lot more planning machinery, there should be room for a decision by the Minister, subject in effect, though perhaps not in form, to appeal on a point of law to the High Court. Of course, in this particular case proceedings might be brought in the High Court to establish that there was in fact and in law a contract.
I think that is the position. I hope that I have stated it fairly. I agree that this is rather an imaginary case. But I think that the separation of the grounds upon which the Minister can act would be so inconvenient in practice, and so confusing, that it is better to let the Minister decide without allowing the applicant to take it away from him and take it to the High Court. One does not in this way deprive the applicant of the right to go to the High Court; one merely makes him do it through another channel. It may be or may not be more expensive; it

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depends on the circumstances. I can conceive of cases where the documents are available where it might be simpler to have it in this form. For these reasons, I would ask the noble Viscount to withdraw the Amendment, though I tell him that I have a certain amount of old-fashioned sympathy for it which is not shared by other people.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: The noble Lord is very engaging in refusing this Amendment. I hope that I may be allowed to make one or two further and, I trust, practical suggestions. The first difficulty about the noble Lord's alternative, which is that one should go by way of declaration, is that it is discretionary, and one might be told that one should have gone to the Minister first and had it dealt with that way. The more difficult point (and I say this with absolutely no disrespect to the inspectors who hold the inquiries for the Ministry, for whom I have the greatest respect and in front of whom I appear frequently) is that they are not, and are not intended to be, strict in procedure. The noble Lord has said there may be cases where these contracts were oral, and it will therefore be a matter for examination of witnesses upon oath. But the rules of evidence in public inquiries are not by any means as strict as in court; nor indeed is the reporting of answers—it is very seldom that there is a shorthand-writer who takes them down.
I would suspect that when the case came to the High Court on a point of law the Court would not welcome a retrial of the whole matter, with all oral witnesses coming again. Moreover, I suspect that this would not be possible, and it would have to be done by way of affidavit. But on what basis are the affidavits to be taken? Will there be a full transcript of the inquiry before the inspector? Will the inspector be one of those specially chosen, as particularly well briefed in the administration of evidence and what he can and what he cannot allow by way of question? Will particular regard be had in the Ministry to the holding of this rather special type of inquiry, where, in some cases, there is almost certain to be trouble as to what was said by whom, what was the inflexion, and points of that kind?
I see the difficulty of separating one ground of appeal from the other, but I
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would impress upon the noble Lord that there is liable to be the most awful confusion under this paragraph 3 of Schedule 1 if it is to go through two stages. I hope that the Ministry of Housing and Local Government will have a very good look at the procedure they propose to adopt for these quite unusual inquiries. They are very special ones, and particular regard must be had to the way in which they are dealt with. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to do something about this matter, and in time, because I daresay this Bill will become law fairly soon. I do not know whether the noble Lord can give any assurance upon these matters.
LORD MITCHISON: I can give no assurance except one, and that is that I will call the attention of the Minister of Housing and Local Government and his officials to what the noble Viscount has said.
LORD HAWKE: I think that my noble friend has made the most overwhelming case for this particular change in the procedure of the Bill, and the only thing he has not emphasised is that this is a very temporary performance. After all, once these cases have been settled there will be no further ones. The only argument which the noble Lord in charge of the Bill really adduced which seemed to break the case at all was one where there was a dual reason for going to the court. I venture to think it would be possible to separate that, would it not?
6.45 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: I frankly do not think that it would be in the interest of an applicant ever to want to go to the High Court instead of appealing to the Minister. If the matter does go to the High Court it will be dealt with entirely on the strict legal principle and on the strict letter of whether there is a contract or not. If it is dealt with by the Minister it may well turn out that the applicant believed there was a contract but it was not in fact a binding contract, and the Minister, being a reasonable person, would deal with the thing on an equitable basis, which the High Court could not do.
The noble Viscount rather challenged the competence of the inspectors—he

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said with respect and with great admiration for the inspectors. Nevertheless, he challenged their competence to deal with these matters. As he knows perfectly well, the inspector is not called upon to decide at all. He is called upon to hear the evidence and to make a faithful note of it and report it to the Minister. If he is able to make a recommendation, and he generally is, he makes it; but if he finds any difficulty in making a recommendation he merely presents the facts to the Minister and leaves the Minister to make it. I have had considerable experience of inspectors, as the noble Viscount has, and I am bound to say I have never found an inspector who was not competent to appreciate the points that were presented to him, even on a legal document, even on a question as to whether there is a contract or not. I should have thought it is by far in the interests of the applicant himself or the person against whom the enforcement notice has been served to leave it to the Minister rather than to the Court. But that would only mean that he would not, if he were properly advised, exercise his option very often.
I appreciate that he is not compelled to take his case to the Court. But, as my noble friend has said, this probably will not be the only point which will be at issue, not merely as to whether there is a contract before the 5th November; other points will possibly have to be considered, and it would be quite wrong, I think, to isolate one ground and give a person the right to go to the High Court on that alone, however ill-advised he may be to go, and yet give him the right to go to the Minister on the other point, as this Amendment does. It provides that he may go to the Minister as well as the Court.
I think that is very much complicating the procedure. I take it that the purpose of the Amendment is to ensure that no hardship is caused to a person against whom an enforcement notice has been served, and I can visualise cases where he may well believe there has been a contract, a binding and enforceable contract. It may turn out that it is not binding and not enforceable; nevertheless, he ought to get relief, and the Court could not give it and the
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Minister could. So I feel that the clause is much better left as it is.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: The last thing I wish to leave as an impression with the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, is that I was criticising the competence of the inspectors of the Ministry to grasp points, whether of fact, law or anything else. What I was saying was that they were not experts in administering the strict laws of evidence and that they did not always (because they cannot write fast enough what is said) take a completely full, verbatim note of what is said, which may be of importance in the case of oral evidence.
LORD SILKIN: The noble Viscount has seen some of their reports, I am sure, and has seen that they are quite long enough, and it would appear that they have taken almost a verbatim account of the proceedings.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: Yes; but when it is going to be a matter of an affidavit to the High Court, it may not be enough upon which to pursue this matter. The noble Lord has also pointed out that it may be to the advantage of the applicant to go to the Minister rather than to the High Court. There is, I think, an appeal either way. There is an appeal from the enforcing authority to the High Court as well, if they are not satisfied with the Minister's decision because it is not quite accurate enough for them. They can take it up to the High Court as well. I am not sure that this is a thoroughly strong point, and again it is a matter which I should like to consider. There is one big difficulty that the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, has pointed out. If I can think of a way round that, it may be possible that we shall return to it at another stage. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 9 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD DRUMALBYN: I have one short question on subsection (4).
LORD CHAMPION: It was the intention that we should resume the House at this stage. We did not want a long discussion on Clause 9. We were going to resume the House after disposing of this

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Amendment. But if the point is a short one—
LORD DRUMALBYN: It is a short one, unless the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, has a long answer to it. Subsection (4), in line 34, says:
"…section 46(3) of that Act (whereby, on an appeal, an enforcement notice is of no effect while the appeal is pending) shall not apply to such an enforcement notice."
As I understand it, an enforcement notice can require not only the building to be stopped but the status quo ante to be restored. If that is so, I think this wants looking at again. With great respect, while the appeal is pending, the status quo ante could be altered. I think this point is probably something worth looking at.
LORD MITCHISON: We will look at it.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I am much obliged.
Clause 9 agreed to.
LORD CHAMPION: I beg to move that the House be now resumed.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.