NATIONAL ASSISTANCE BILL [H.L.] (Hansard, 18 March 1965)

§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL
My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, before the Question is put, I think that we ought perhaps at some stage or another to have some comment from the Government. May I say, first of all—and I hope your Lordships will agree—that I think this is a better Bill now than it was when it was discussed on Second Reading. Of course, I am biased in that matter, as the noble Lady has been good enough to accept some of my Amendments, as well as incorporating many of her own. I think it is perhaps too much to expect that in its present form this is, in the classic words, a "good and perfect Bill", for the very good reason that we have not since Second Reading had the benefit of the advice and counsel of the Government. But I suggest that the Bill in its present form is at least worthy of further consideration in another place.
I think it is unfortunate that, apart from one intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, on the Committee stage, when he said that he was not going to intervene, but intervened as a matter of courtesy, the Government have abstained from giving their advice. They have not contributed at all to the remaining stages of the Bill. I feel that I am reminded very much of the well-known cartoon, and if I might parody that I would say this to the noble Lord: "Say something, my Lord, even if it is only 'Goodbye'".

§ LORD MITCHISON
My Lords, nobody could resist an invitation in those terms. The noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, is perfectly right in saying that very considerable changes have been made in this Bill during its passage through this House. I developed my objections to it (at great length, I am afraid, and I am sorry that the noble Lord has forgotten them all) on the Second Reading of the Bill, and those objections to the Bill in 433 its original form are still there. The changes it has now undergone seem to me to be a matter for comment in another place, and not on Third Reading in your Lordships' House.
It is indeed a very different Bill from what it was to start with. This was a case where the Government took the view—and I expressed it—that the Bill was misconceived. We had—and still have—the greatest respect for the experience of my noble friend Lady Summerskill—and, for that matter, for that of the noble Lord himself, not to mention the noble Lord, a former Chairman of the National Assistance Board, who addressed the House on this subject. But the noble Lord will have to reconcile himself, as I have to, to the fact that on Second Reading his views and mine were overruled by a majority of the House. In those circumstances, I think, it would be singularly inappropriate if the Government were called upon to follow the bewildering changes the Bill has undergone subsequently. I think they will have to be considered carefully when it goes to another place and considered as it now is, not as it started. I was charged with sulking, like Achilles, in my tent. This Bill is Proteus.

§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL
My Lords, this is a very simple Amendment. I have been advised by the House authorities that this form of words should be added to the Long Title. I beg to move.

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords, perhaps this Amendment gives us on this side an opportunity of congratulating the noble Baroness on her success on getting this Bill through this place. She has worked very hard on it and I think she deserves the support of the whole House.

§ LORD MITCHISON
My Lords, may I be allowed to add my personal congratulations to the noble Baroness? We have known one another a long time. I have always found her a most energetic and, if she does not mind my saying so, a most sympathetic character, and in this case she has shown her sympathy for people who have considerable need of the help 434 she can give them. These are my personal congratulations.

§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL
I beg to move that the Privilege Amendment be agreed to.

§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL
My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass. It is very kind of the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, to say what he has, and also the noble Lord opposite, but they were a little premature, because this is the moment when they should make their little speeches, and so they have another opportunity. I should like to express my appreciation of all who have helped me to improve the Bill in the various stages.
I must confess I do not quite follow my noble friend. I was not going to mention him, but he has intervened, although he said at an earlier stage, when he was sitting at the corner of the Bench, that he had no intention of saying any more. I think he cannot have read the Bill. If he reads the Bill, he will find that everything in the Bill can be related to everything I said on Second Reading. I carefully read the Second Reading debate this morning and I found that every point I made is reflected in the Bill before your Lordships. I would ask my noble friend, who curiously enough has had second thoughts, to read the Bill again, and he will find that, far from being altered, as the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, said it has been strengthened. After all, that is the whole purpose of having various stages of a Bill; we discussed it on Committee stage and on Report stage and now we discuss it at this stage. I think we can say that this is as good as we can make it. And although it is a measure limited to certain functions of the National Assistance Board and the court, nevertheless I believe it marks another stage in doing more for the fatherless child and its mother.
I want to mention two Amendments that have been made in the course of the passage of the Bill. I think it has been improved by my Amendment which makes it the duty of the court to bring proceedings pending to the notice of the 435 Board, thereby giving the mother protection in the initial stages of the order. I think the House agreed on Second Reading that she should be protected in the early stages, but this Amendment ensures that the Board is alerted immediately the order is made. I am grateful to the House for its acceptance also of the new clause, which enables the Board to give assistance to a child, irrespective of whether the mother is in full-time employment or not. This is certainly a departure, but I emphasise that I was asking for this concession only for the child and not for the mother.
Promoting a Private Member's Bill is not easy unless one has the assistance of knowledgeable friends, and preferably people with a legal training. Sometimes this is withheld. I should like to express my deep appreciation of the excellent advice and courtesy which I have always received from the Clerks at the Table. I would also thank the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, who as a former Minister of National Insurance recognised the hardships which exist, as I did, having served in that Department for some years. Although the noble Lord opposed this Bill on the Second Reading, nevertheless he bore me no ill-will and has co-operated in trying to improve the Bill on the Committee and Report stages.

§ LORD DRUMALBYN
My Lords may I intervene to say that I did not vote against the Bill on Second Reading?

§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL
I beg the noble Lord's pardon; I thought he did. I thought he had been very noble thinking he voted against the Bill, and I should like to thank him for his help. He has given his time and knowledge to the consideration of the proposals embodied in the Bill and I am very grateful for it. I would also thank the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, who has also been of great help to me. Last, but not least, may I thank noble Lords from all parts of the House who supported me on Second Reading? Now I propose to consign this Bill to the care of my daughter in another place, where I hope she will successfully pilot it to the Statute Book.