§ 3.12 p.m.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government when the remains of Anne Mowbray, Duchess of York, will be reinterred.]
§ THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM)My Lords, my right honourable friend is consulting the authorities of Westminster Abbey and of the London Museum about arrangements for reinterment. It has not yet been possible to fix a date.
§ LORD DERWENTMay I ask the noble Lord whether the London Museum have finished their researches; and, if they have done so, what is the cause of this long delay?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, the London Museum have not yet finished their researches. If your Lordships will bear with me I would explain the difficulty which confronts my right honourable friend. The view has been put to the Abbey authorities and the London Museum that the reinterment should take place without delay. The Abbey authorities could reinter the remains with no more delay than would be needed to ensure that the reinterment was conducted in a decent and reverent manner. They are anxious to prepare a commemorative plaque and to take a cast of the inscription on the coffin. But the London Museum would be extremely reluctant to bundle the remains back into the casket in their present condition, not only because, in the condition in which they were found, the remains were not in a state fit for decent and proper reinterment but because the opportunity for scientific, and historical knowledge of 183 considerable importance would be irrevocably lost. The thick silt in the coffin contains not only the larger and more easily recognisable bones but many smaller ones, and the separation and identification of these is a long and difficult task which is as yet far from complete. It was thought desirable this should be completed so that the remains could be reinterred as a complete entity.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, this is really not quite good enough. This body has had Christian burial. During the three months that the London Museum have, without authority, had these remains, have they yet discovered anything by their researches? And does anybody know what further things they expect to discover?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, this body did receive Christian burial and was subsequently removed from the original place of burial. I do not think that there is any question of any difference of feeling or sentiment between the noble Lord and Her Majesty's Government; but the examination of the remains that has so far taken place will serve no useful purpose unless it can be brought to a conclusion. There are many things which it is expected to discover. Examination may further establish identity by confirming a blood relationship between Anne Mowbray and the Princes in the Tower. We hope to be able to discover the state of the Princess's health, and possibly the cause of her death, and perhaps the circumstances of the transfer of the burial from Westminster Abbey to Stepney, will be revealed by further investigation. There are many other things of that nature to be discovered.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, I am sorry to press this matter, but are any of these things that are supposed to have been discovered really of the slightest historical interest? Is the noble Lord aware that this is a public museum controlled by the Government? Is it not about time that the Government stepped in and said that these experiments—and they are little more than that—should stop?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, my right honourable friend appreciates that this is a matter which has aroused con- 184 siderable public interest—and not only public interest, but also a great deal of scientific, archæological and historical interest. If the work were hurried too much it might well be that the task would be botched; and I am quite sure that that is the last thing that anyone concerned would wish to happen.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, do I understand that the Government have not, in fact, authorised the continuance of these researches, of whatever value the results of those researches may be? Has the time not come when this body should be reinterred without delay? The London Museum, so far as I remember, started this operation without any authority at all. Did they subsequently obtain any authority? Did anyone authorise these researches? Have the Government approved of what they are doing? Do the Government approve? If not, I suggest that the Government should take action to see that this matter is terminated without delay.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, the one power that my right honourable friend has is to grant a licence for reinterment. He has not yet granted that licence, and he is considering the representations made by the authorities of both Westminster Abbey and the London Museum before granting the licence.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, that does not answer the questions I put to the noble Lord. Are not the London Museum under the Treasury? Have not the Government some responsibility in this matter? Do the Government approve of these experiments being continued?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, so far as Government approval is concerned, the position is that the Government would not wish that there should be any undue haste in a matter of this kind.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEThree months!
§ LORD STONHAMThe noble Viscount says: "Three months". When I originally answered a Question on this point I indicated that investigations were likely to take six months, of which some three months have elapsed. But we have not received many representations on this matter. It is thought that it would be a pity if the opportunities arising from 185 this investigation should be irrevocably lost by an over-hurried reinterment when we are not in a position to reinter the remains decently properly.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, can my noble friend say when the remains of Anne Mowbray will be allowed to rest in peace?
§ LORD STONHAMAs I indicated in my original Answer, and in my last supplementary, that has not been precisely determined, so far as an exact date is concerned; but I can give an assurance that it will be as soon as it can be decently and properly done.
§ LORD AIREDALEMy Lords, will Her Majesty's Government be more specific? Will Her Majesty's Government now say to the London Museum that at the expiry of three months from to-day's date this body is to be handed over is made to the Government by the Museum—and is approved by the Government—for a still longer period before reinterment?
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I am quite sure that my right honourable friend would regard three months from the present date as the extreme limit which could be allowed before reinterment of the remains of the little Princess.
§ LORD BROWNMy Lords, I am puzzled. Can my noble friend give us any reason for hurrying this reinterment? He stated that there might be some marginal benefit, but it is not clear to me what benefit arises from hurrying the reinterment.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, this is a matter of considerable delicacy, and I do not think that it is in good taste to continue putting these questions. May I suggest to the noble Viscount, who has an interest in this matter, that we could well discuss it through the usual channels, to see whether we could take it away from the Floor of the House? I believe that that would be the general feeling of the House on the matter.