§ 7.15 p.m.
§ Report of Amendments received (according to Order).
§ Clause 1:
§ National Asistance Board may join in certain legal proceedings
§ 1.—(1) The National Assistance Board may join with any plaintiff (hereinafter called "the other plaintiff" I in any proceedings whose purpose, or part of whose purpose, is the recovery or obtaining of any sum or sums of money the equivalent of which or of part of which the Board thinks itself likely, if such proceedings were not brought, to have to pay to the other plaintiff.
§ (3) It shall be the duty of any court in which any proceedings mentioned in the foregoing subsection have been initiated to bring such proceedings to the notice of the Board.
§ (5) In any case in which such a direction as is mentioned in the last preceding subsection is in force, the Board may pay to the other plaintiff such sums as are ordered by the judgment to be paid to the Board, whether or not such payments are actually made to the Board.
§
LORD DRUMALBYN moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "recovery or obtaining" and to insert:
obtaining by periodic payments or the recovery".
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is little more than a drafting Amendment. At an earlier stage I moved an Amendment to limit the scope of the Bill to maintenance and affiliation payments. What I thought could be excluded in particular were proceedings the purpose of which was to obtain a lump sum by way of compensation or damages. I cannot say with certainty that the Amendment I am now moving will achieve that object, but it at least will suggest very strongly to anyone reading and seeking to interpret this clause that it is concerned wholly, or at least mainly, with cases which involve periodic payments and the recovery of weekly payments already made by the National Assistance Board, or of amounts which the court says should have been paid by the defendant either to the National Assistance Board or to the other plaintiff.
§ It may be that the Amendment leaves more latitude than that to the National Assistance Board, and I gathered that the noble Lady would prefer rather more 274 latitude than I had originally suggested, so that if some case came to the attention of the National Assistance Board where they thought it would be desirable in the public interest and in the interests of the other plaintiff that they should be joined with the other plaintiff in the action, they could be joined.
§ In any case, the Amendment serves to emphasise what are the main purposes of the Bill—I am sure that the noble Lady will agree—that is, to deal with maintenance of the deserted or divorced wife under a maintenance order, or the support of the illegitimate child under an affiliation order. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 7, leave out ("recovery or obtaining") and insert the said new words.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, the noble Lord and I discussed this matter on the Committee stage and I congratulate him at arriving at a form of words which I think is quite clear to most people. They mean that the payment should be made, not in a lump sum but in a periodic fashion. Of course, the noble Lord will recall that I gave certain illustrations at Committee stage and on Second Reading, and I think if we put these words in and then leave it to the discretion of the Board the Bill will have been improved. I should like to accept the Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, this is really part of the same Amendment and is consequential. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 11, at end insert ("or which the Board has already paid to the other plaintiff").—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, again this Amendment stems from discussion we had in Committee stage and on Second Reading. The noble Lord was a little apprehensive, I think, lest a woman might be compelled to join with the Board although she was reluctant to do so. This makes it quite clear that she will not have to join with the Board unless she is perfectly willing to do so. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 11, at end insert ("provided that no joint proceedings may be brought under this subsection without the consent of the other plaintiff").—(Baroness Summerskill.)
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lady for putting in this Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL moved to leave out subsection (3) and to insert instead:
( ) Upon the initiation of any such proceedings as are mentioned in the foregoing subsection, it shall he the duty of the court in which the proceedings are brought to bring them to the notice of the Board".
§ The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I think it was generally agreed by the House that, in order to protect the woman, at least so that she might claim at an earlier stage, it is desirable that the Board should be instructed that proceedings were pending. This Amendment serves to emphasise the need to bring the Board into the picture at the initial stage of a case. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 26, leave out subsection (3) and insert the said subsection.—(Baroness Summerskill.)
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I again thank the noble Baroness for clarifying this intention.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, I am quite sure that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack will approve of this little change: it makes the wording more legalistic. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved1—
Page 2, line 2, leave out ("judgment") and insert ("court").—(Baroness Sumtnerskill.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ 7.21 p.m.
§
LORD DRUMALBYN moved, in subsection (5), to leave out all words after "may" and to insert instead:
make payments to the other plaintiff, whether or not the sums ordered by the Court to be paid to them are actually paid; so however that—
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, we had some discussion at the earlier stage of the Bill as to the circumstances in which the Board should pass on money received from the defendant and the amount which they should pay the other plaintiff if those sums were not received. The purpose of this Amendment—I think it is self-explanatory—is that the Board shall not pay the co-plaintiff less than they receive from the defendant, which was the point the noble Baroness wanted to insist on; and secondly, the point I was anxious to preserve: that the Board should not pay the co-plaintiff more than they are entitled to do under the National Assistance Act where the defendant is due to make and fails to make a larger periodic payment. Thirdly (this was a point the noble Baroness brought to my attention), where the defendant pays irregularly, or misses altogether from time to time, and then pays what he should have paid, or part of what he should have paid, the Board may pass on the money in whatever way they think to be in the interest of the co-plaintiff, not necessarily in a lump sum. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 7, leave out from ("may") to end of line 10 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, I have endeavoured to arrive at the same conclusion as the noble Lord has by drafting Amendment No. 9. But I agree that he has included a very important point: that the Board shall not be allowed to pay anything more than the National Assistance rate. I 277 said on Second Reading that I was quite prepared to compromise on what we might call the third prong of his Amendment, and if I accept that, my attempt at drafting in Amendment 9 will fall. I am pleased to accept this Amendment.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 8, leave out ("judgment") and insert ("court").—(Baroness Summerskill.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, in view of the fact that I have accepted Amendment No. 6, I will not move Amendments Nos. 8 and 9 in my name. I beg to move Amendment No. 10.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 11, leave out subsection (6).—(Baroness Summerskill.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 2 [Payments for children of persons fully employed]:
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 21, leave out from ("for") to end to line 23 and insert ("all the words after 'money'").—(Baroness Summerskill.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, this again meets the suggestion that we should apply it to Scotland also, as the noble Lord said. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
After Clause 2, insert the following new clause—
§ Application to Scotland
§ (". In the application of this Act to Scotland—
- (a) For the word 'plaintiff' there shall be substituted the word 'pursuer' which shall include any party initiating proceedings in any court in Scotland;
- (b) for the reference to the Matrimonial Causes Act 1950 there shall be substituted a reference to the Divorce (Scotland) Acts 1938 and 1964;
- (c) for the reference to the Matrimonial Proceedings (Magistrates' Courts) Act 1960 there shall be substituted a reference to the Maintenance Orders Act 1950;
- (d) for the reference to the Guardianship of Infants Acts 1885 and 1925 there shall be substituted a reference to the Custody of Children (Scotland) Act 1939; and
- (e) for the reference to the Affiliation Proceedings Act 1957 there shall be substituted a reference to the Illegitimate Children (Scotland) Act 1930.")—(Baroness Summerskill.)
§ LORD DRUMALBYNI thank the noble Baroness for following this out.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, I should like to think that Scottish women also would benefit from this Bill.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
After Clause 2 insert the following new clause—
§ Interpretation
§ ("—(1) In this Act, 'plaintiff' includes a party proceeding by action, summons, petition, or counter-claim.
§ (2) Any reference in this Act to any other enactment includes a reference to that enactment as amended by any other Act, whether passed before or after the commencement of this Act.")—(Baroness Summerskill.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ The House adjourned at twenty-eight minutes past seven o'clock.