PREPARATION FOR RETIREMENT

HL Deb 04 March 1965 vol 263 cc1288-319

4.10 p.m.

LORD CROOK rose to call attention to various activities now proceeding, and envisaged, to prepare men and women for retirement from their career occupations, so that they secure the maximum enjoyment of their future years; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, there have been many debates in your Lordships' House in which the problems of old age, geriatrics, the shortage of hospital beds, and the like have been discussed. This afternoon I am inviting your Lordships to look at all those problems in a different way and from a different angle. But first of all, in accordance with the Rules of the House I should declare an interest, as I am President of the Pre-Retirement Association.

In these matters which your Lordships have discussed you have been looking at a set of new and growing problems which have arisen by reason of the population trend in recent years and the older average age of the people of this country. We all know, without discussing it, that babies who, had they been borne 20, 30 or 40 years ago, would have died, now live by reason of improved medical science. They live to go on to school with better chances of survival and with better opportunities. They have their school milk and their meals, and so they thrive instead of dying. Equally, at the other end of the age cycle the improved conditions, the Welfare State and, of course, the progress of medicine in the control of killing diseases, are allowing people to go on living to a riper old age. So the percentage of the population which is aged is larger than ever before, and it goes on growing.

On the latest available figures, there were in 1964 over 8½ million persons of what is called pensionable age, and all the statistics show that about 500,000 will be added to that figure each year. The proportion of the population of this country of that kind of age is now more than double what it was fifty years ago, and those who have been dealing with these subjects forecast that the trend will continue for at least the next fifteen and probably the next twenty years. So before long every fifth person that we meet in the street will be one of this age group, because we understand that the 8½ million will be growing to 9 million or 10 million or more in the next ten years.

To put it another way, we see how serious the problem of the aged population is if we say that every day a thousand men and women reach the retirement age of 60 in the case of women and 65 in the case of men. They can expect a further 12 to 20 years of good and active life, on present trends. It is to that large, growing number of people that this Motion refers, for their retirement years should be golden years in their lives, not years full of difficulty and boredom and worry, as they are to many of them. The retirement period ought to be put in its true perspective in this changing world. Life is known by all of us to start in happy childhood and to go on to what in most cases is a happy school age and a happy teen age, then on to happy parentage and, finally, to the stage when one possesses delightful grandchildren. So when grandma and grandpa are later on left on their own, they ought to be faced with a new period of life which they understand fully and which they can appreciate to the full.

If I may say so with all respect to all of your Lordships, we who inhabit this House are, indeed, very fortunate persons, when we think of the interest that we have in life and will continue to have in life so long as we come to your Lordships' House. But the position is very different when we look into the lives of repetitive workers in office and factory. They have gone into employment at an early age. Often it was not employment which they wanted to go into; it was not congenial at all. Had their chances been different, they might have had a job far removed from the one they had to take. But, over the years, because of the necessities of life, for 20, 30, 40 or 50 years, they have travelled in the same bus with the people they know, they have had their meals in the canteen with the people they know, with the mates with whom they joked.

My Lords, it is salutary to remind ourselves that it is often said that one-third of our lives is spent in bed. But it is also as well to remember that one-third of working people's lives, at the very least, is spent either at their work or in getting to and from work; and, regrettably, when they come to retirement many of them are faced with the unknown. A man who has been only something like a lodger in his own house, sometimes finds himself 24 hours a day with the "missus". He finds the bit of gardening that he did at the week-ends and in the odd evening, suddenly becoming, in many cases, the only job of work he has to do all the week. Regrettably, too, because of financial stringency, many of them find that their odd pint of beer at the institute, which got them out at night and which took them among their fellow people, has to be rather restricted or given up. It is no wonder, if you move about among working people as I have done in the trade union movement over very many years, that you find that retirement is one of the things which is something that many people fear, and was feared even before this longevity problem arose.

What I want to suggest to your Lordships is that we can, if we try, influence the lives of people about to face retirement, to make them happier. Some want occupations and jobs within their scope; others, who do not want to take paid employment, want opportunities for social service in the community in which they live. An increasing number of persons, organisations and firms have been studying this matter and working at the problems over a long period of time. Great work has been done by local community councils, by old people's welfare committees, by the W.V.S.—I see that the noble Baroness, Lady Swan-borough, has left; I hoped she would still be here—and so on. There are retirement councils and preparation for retirement committees in many cities and towns.

I should like to pay a tribute to the considerable number of firms who have needed no prodding or guidance from anybody, but have seen a responsibility and got on with the job. They felt that they had a responsibility to people who had worked with them for years. The traditional gold watch at 50 and, "Goodbye, Bill" was not enough. There was something that they could do in respect of those years afterwards. Also, they realised that they might be able to use the services of those persons in such a way that the production effort of the firm and of the country, and the export opportunity, could be made greater, because it is possible to re-employ people after retirement if you create the right situation. Thus a worker need not be left without interest; he need not be left with his income cut so suddenly and so drastically.

The name of the firm of Rubery Owen occurs to me immediately as one of the pioneers in this regard, and I know of firms—there are members of these firms who sit on your Lordships' Benches—like Tate and Lyle, Hoover and the Electrical Research Association, who are numbered among the many who have tried to do something to meet this kind of problem. But I will not bore your Lordships by giving you a long list of firms of that kind. Nor will I give you a long list of the many large firms who go out of their way to send representatives to conferences run regularly by the Industrial Welfare Society on Preparation for Retirement. Other huge firms, again represented by some noble Lords sitting on these Benches—such as Cadbury, Dunlop, Lucas, Pilkington, Unilever and Stewart and Lloyds—have gone out of their way to try to do things. Indeed, altogether about 140 firms are known to have been active in spending money on this praiseworthy objective. But we know, from other debates in this House, that the majority of people are not working in large factories and establishments; they are working in the very large number of small organisations of which this country is made up.

My Lords, as long ago as 1955 the National Old People's Welfare Council, believing that much of the distress and loneliness of old age could be prevented by forethought and proper planning, set up a study group, which study group, within 3½ years, presented a report—a report which recommended further exploration with the co-operation of industry, of religious bodies and of voluntary organisations, and, if possible, of statutory bodies as well. With the financial backing for an initial period, which in the end was five years, of the National Corporation for the Care of Old People, the Preparation for Retirement Committee was established. At the end of 1963 a national conference on the subject, organised with the assistance of the British Institute of Management, the Industrial Welfare Society, the Institute of Directors and the Institute of Personnel Management, was held, attended by some 200 high-level representatives of industry and firms, of medical and voluntary organisations and of educational organisations. It was also well covered by our friends of the Press, some 47 journalists and representatives of the B.B.C. being present.

Last year, out of this beginning, the organisation to which I have referred, the Pre-Retirement Association, was established as a legal charity, its aim being to enable people to prepare for this completely new pattern of their lives, to prevent the sudden limitation of interests for them, and to try to secure plans to remove the sense of uselessness which engulfs too many of them in their later years—and does so, if I may add this, at great cost to the Welfare State as well as to the lives of the people themselves.

This Association is sponsored by 48 organisations having a concern in the field to which I have referred. Eleven of them are from industry and commerce, and they include the British Employers' Confederation, with which a number of your Lordships are connected; the Institute of Directors, again with many of your Lordships among them; and representatives of the Trades Union Congress—and I am glad to see at least two of my T.U.C. colleagues in the House with me this afternoon. Then, there are seven from medical organisations, including the Association of Industrial Medical Officers, the College of General Practitioners and the Royal Society of Health.

There are also others from educational organisations, voluntary organisations and local regional committees that have been established in places such as Birmingham and Glasgow; while a number of Government Departments, the B.B.C. and other educational people hold a watching brief on the Committee. There are, in addition, a further 121 associate organisations. I have been honoured in that in recent months I have been asked to become President of the organisation; and since I have come so late into that movement, it becomes easy for me to pay a tribute to all those connected with industry, education, medicine and the voluntary services who have done so much in the years since 1955.

The function of the Association is to get together the large and growing amount of information that is accumulating, and to try to bring things into a common place to help everybody on the problem in general. To that end, among others, a medical panel has been established. It is made up of well-known medical practitioners, giving voluntary service happily in the belief that they have something to do—and I am glad to see the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, in his place. They proceeded with three main ideas in mind: first, that the general practitioners should be encouraged to counsel individual people; secondly, that an attempt should be made to secure the help of individual doctors; and, thirdly—and I say this advisedly—that the doctors themselves should be given a certain amount of advice and study on these matters.

Fortunately, the reaction of the larger medical organisations has been excellent. Apart from the help already given, the College of General Practitioners are to have a symposium later this year, the British Medical Association are to make the subject their study subject for 1966, the Central Council for Health Education will have this as a discussion subject at a summer school next year, and so on and so forth. There is, of course, a valuable medical field here, to which a number of our medical colleagues in this House have addressed themselves again and again over recent years: for, my Lords, one-third of all the hospital beds in this country are used by people over these retiring ages, although that is still a very small proportion—less than 5 per cent.—of the people of those ages who live in this country. But the point is worth making, if only for the fact that the most expensive social service that we have in this country, as we know again from our debates, is the hospital service.

On the educational side, the organisation has been equally fortunate. It has an excellent educational panel. They have recommended a number of items, which include a programme of planning preparation for retirement courses inside industry, and with the help of industry, and the appointment of development officers who would both train tutors and themselves embark on courses. So industry is joined by these two, medicine and education; and, as the lady who is the efficient secretary of the organisation said to me only last week, "This is a kind of preventive medicine by way of education."

My Lords, whatever the good intentions of industry, of medicine, of education and of all the voluntary people, the limiting feature here, of course, is that, so long as this is not in any way an adopted service that can have anything in terms of money from the Government, it lives on borrowed money, on other people's money; on money that is given voluntarily by such firms as feel disposed to give it. Here again, as one who has been in the trade union movement and has known the harder side of some big industrialists, I think it only right to say how good many big industrial firms have been. Not only are they running their own schemes, but they have been ready to put their hands into their pockets in order to help this organisation, believing that this would be a justifiable social service. That, I believe, is the conclusion to which Her Majesty's Government should come; and I hope that, somehow or other, they will arrange for a grant to be made. A social service of this kind would be of tremendous value. It would relieve the future costs of the hospital service; it could help the Ministry of Labour in its manpower problems; and it could help, in a related way, the Board of Trade by assisting exports through the increased productivity which, by the employment of these people, might be made available to us in this country.

My Lords, what we need, in short, is a social service to try to secure that those who are shortly to retire shall understand the life which is in front of them. That will involve work for some, with industrial experiment and the organisation of the far-thinking firms extended to small firms who cannot manage to do anything for themselves. And it will involve showing those who do not want paid employment what they can do to live their lives usefully and where the opportunities of social service in the community lie open to them. It must be a voluntary social service, an organisation using the services of many valuable volunteers who have not yet reached the age of retirement; essentially a social service the acceptance of which will be voluntary on the part of the people, with no dragooning of anybody into anything.

I had hoped that we might have a longer discussion than we are apparently to have. I was hoping to have the ideas of some other noble Lords with whom I have talked over the tea-table on this subject during recent months. But I will sum up by saying that all who have pioneered in this matter lead us to believe that in this changing world we have got to adjust our sights and realise that we must study the need and try to plan to help this very large and growing section of our population. I beg to move for Papers.

4.31 p.m.

BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEY

My Lords, to make a maiden speech at my age is something of an occasion. I have been looking forward to it, and I am relying on the customary kindness and courtesy which I know your Lordships always extend to newcomers. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Crook, for his Motion and for giving me the opportunity of speaking on a subject which I have had in my mind for a very long time—before even I acquired a vested interest, such as a great many people share with me here this afternoon.

I was struck by this subject some 35 years ago when, unexpectedly, I was made Chairman of the 2,000-bed Hackney Hospital. This was at the time when the L.C.C. took over the hospitals from the guardians, and I happened to be one of the Members for Hackney, North. I went down to see my new responsibility and, having visited the sick side of this large hospital, I went over to the institution side, what was generally called in those days "The House". The women's side was tolerable, up to a point, because they had some work to do. They had their ordinary household chores, laundry, mending, sewing and, inevitably, knitting; there was a certain companionship in their work, and a good deal of gossiping. But the men's side really wrung my heart.

There were the "dads" and the "granddads", sitting in a concrete courtyard when it was fine, looking at brick walls; and sitting in the corridors and rooms when it was wet—just sitting and waiting. I said to myself: "This really isn't life; it's just waiting for death". I shall never forget that picture, and to this day I can see them in my mind's eye: just sitting and waiting.

I thought that this subject should have arisen in our minds sooner than it has done. I was fortunate when, in 1959, in another place a colleague was lucky in the ballot for Motions and asked me to second him in a Motion for the Re-employment of the Elderly. We had a most interesting debate; it was a very well-attended debate—much better so than here this afternoon—but nothing happened. I am sorry to see that the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, is not in the Chamber at the moment, because I want to quote from his little booklet in which he says: Much research has taken place on this subject, much has been said, but little really has been done. And I think that is the point we are at this afternoon.

It is true that at the turn of the century the conscience of the nation was stirred over the question of what should be done for the older generation; and perhaps I may briefly give the dates of the progress of this awakening of social conscience. The year 1908 saw the first old-age pensions; the years 1911, 1920, 1925, 1928, and 1937 each saw progressive improvements in the situation of the elderly; 1940 gave us, for the first time, widows' pensions and old-age pensions for all; 1946 produced the National Insurance Scheme; and 1948 saw the National Assistance, National Health and Hospital Service. Since the war, the development of home nursing, home helps and houses for the elderly has been progressively increasing year by year; and Governments (I say this with a certain reluctance) have vied with each other in improving pension rates and National Assistance in order to keep ahead of the cost of living.

My Lords, I should like to see this matter taken right out of Party politics; I do not think we can be happy about this particular approach to old age. I think we need an entirely new look at the whole problem, first of all from the point of view of the elderly themselves, before they become old. As the noble Lord, Lord Crook, said, there must be a preparation for old age. Then we must look at the age-spread of the population and take into account the needs of the whole nation at the moment. Increasing pensions from time to time, just paying people for being old, is not good enough. I think that men and women are as old as they feel; and they certainly do not start to go downhill until they realise that they are no longer wanted. That is when disability creeps in and they go down.

If one were to be rather cynical one would say that at the present time people are waking up to the idea of a new look at the problem just because we are short of labour: if there had been no shortage of labour there would not be quite such an interest in this subject. Our country is a small one, of only 52 million people, and we have to compete industrially with giants like the U.S.A. and, now, the Community of Six; and we need the contribution of every able-bodied man and woman who can give something to the general pool. So, in a way, the needs of the elderly now coincide with the needs of the nation; and that makes me hopeful that something may be done. It was not, after all, until there was a shortage of women teachers that married women were encouraged to come back to the teaching profession or, indeed, to remain in it. I must tell your Lordships that many years ago in the late 1920's when I was in the L.C.C. I voted against my Party in the very good company of Lady Norman and Mrs. Cazalet Keir because my Party at that time would not employ married women. Well, the wheel has turned; we were forgiven our rebellion, and became known as the "three fallen angels". And, of course, angels are always on the right side.

My Lords, there are, generally speaking, roughly the same number of people of under-work age as there are of what we generally consider over-work age; and I wonder whether we have not perhaps leaned too much towards the young and not enough towards the elderly population. For the debate yesterday on Youth, the Chamber was full. To-day, we are discussing what should really interest us more; yet the Chamber is not full. For the time being, we must leave the sick and the lonely to the local authorities, who have quite considerable power to deal with them, and to the volunteer societies, because their care is not the main purpose of the Motion to-day—though I could not help thinking, as I came here through the snowy streets to-day, that there must be many old people who have been suffering acutely from the cold of the last few days.

The noble Viscount, Lord Monckton of Brenchley (then Sir Walter Monckton) set up a Committee in 1952, under the right honourable Harold Watkinson (as he then was) to inquire into the employ-ability of the elderly. That Committee reported in 1953, and I should like to quote from page 20 of their Report, where they say: All men and women employed in industry, commerce or the professions, who can give effective service, either in the normal way or in any alternative way which their employers can make available, should be given the opportunity, without regard to age, to continue to work if they wish to do so. I think all of us can agree with that sentiment. I think that the idea of new careers in middle life, a change of status instead of retirement, a completely new lease of life, such as we enjoy in your Lordships' House when we come from another place—this sort of thing should be a matter of course for everybody who wishes to take advantage of it. The noble Lord, Lord Crook, has given a sketch of how much is being done, in one way or another, but we need some help from the Government to come to some practical issue.

I should like to make three suggestions. I always feel that if one has an audience good enough to listen, one ought to leave in their minds some practical point which can be followed up. First of all, the earnings rule is, I think, a disincentive and should be abolished. It produces a wrong outlook. I would rather see the pensionable age go up by a year or two, especially in the case of women, and have no earnings rule. I believe that everybody would benefit by this. I am certain that as time goes on it will be better to have a full retiring age a year or two higher and have no earnings rule. The second essential thing is to have a system of transferable pensions and a system whereby part-time people can be adjusted to the pension system.

Thirdly, there must be a change of attitude on the part of the middle-aged people themselves. I know that it is difficult, when you have reached a certain eminence, to make up your mind that you have to give way to the younger generation and perhaps take a less important job. But it is important that the older generation should not stand in the way of promotion for the young. We have to get back to the spirit that inspired us during the war. A friend of mine, a great Admiral, after going to sea in command of some of the convoys to Russia, had pneumonia twice running while coming home, and was told by the Admiralty that the time had come when they could no longer send him to sea in command. So he joined up as an able seaman on the M.T.B.s on shore patrol. He did not mind not being an Admiral any more, so long as he was of some use. I am sure that we can all remember how, during the war local, retired Colonels and Generals joined the Home Guard—achieving, perhaps, the exalted rank of corporal! That is the sort of spirit we need to get back in our middle-aged population.

I know from my own experience that there are many jobs in local government and national Government offices which are not very tiring or active, and which might well be re-graded for the more sedentary type of middle-aged. As the noble Lord, Lord Crook, has said, many firms already have this matter well in mind and have reorganised their internal domestic arrangements, so that they can move on employees as they get older to less active jobs. A great deal more of that should go on, right through the nation. Above all, we need to get Government encouragement for it, and a certain amount of publicity; because until we realise that handing out pensions and paying people just for being old does not cure the ills of old age, we shall not have begun to touch what is a tremendous human problem. Lastly, I would suggest that an advisory committee be set up to carry on from the point where the Watkinson Committee left off. The recommendations are there, but one would like to see a Government Com- mittee which will set out what can be done in a practical way.

4.46 p.m.

THE LORD BISHOP OF SOUTHWARK

My Lords, on this cold, cheerless day, I am sure that the hearts of many of us were gladdened when we knew that the noble Baroness, Lady Emmet of Amberley, was going to make her maiden speech this afternoon. It is unfortunate that it is such a bad day, because I am sure that one of the reasons why the House is somewhat thin is because of the traffic complications, both coming to and leaving the House. However, those of us who have had the good fortune to be here this afternoon have been delighted to have had the privilege of hearing her. As we know, she comes to your Lordships' House with a long experience of public life, both in another place and elsewhere, and she will have much to contribute to our debates. She has, indeed, been true to the terms of the Motion—preparing people for retirement from their career occupations—as the noble Lady has come from another place; and we hope that she will find your Lordships' House a place for vigorous retirement. As for the second part of the Motion, the securing of maximum enjoyment in retirement, we hope that the noble Lady will secure maximum enjoyment here. I am sure that if she speaks to us as she has spoken to us this afternoon, we are going to derive the maximum enjoyment from having her in our midst.

I am glad that this subject is being debated this afternoon, as it is one which is of growing interest to the Church. The discussion concerns what might well be now a quarter of the perid of a man's life, which is rather a frightening thought. To these years we must try to give significance and meaning. A parish priest is frequently dealing with people who are approaching retirement. On the horizon, the freedom from routine seems attractive, but as the day comes nearer there are many misgivings. What a man particularly fears is the loneliness which results from the breaking of relationships and the sadness that comes from the realisation that one is no longer a member of a community the existence of which has been taken for granted for many years. He moves from a nexus of relationships in which he has been known for what he has, what he does and what he is, into a situation which to some extent is strange and problematical.

I appreciate that a man's ability to cope with this changing situation depends partly upon his temperament, and it certainly demands an adequate philosophy of life. The contentment of spirit that is the consequence of beliefs, priorities and values is essentially a personal matter, about which Governments can do little, except—and this is important—to provide the conditions that will encourage contentment and to make these conditions known. Among these conditions I would include the following. First, economic security. I have No 1ntention of using this debate as an occasion for discussing the complex problem of old-age pensions. I want to make one point only. No matter what this Government or future Governments may or may not do about increasing pensions, our countrymen should be encouraged while they are still young to join some scheme which will provide additional income after retirement. With many this already happens; but with many it does not. I know it is difficult for a young man in his twenties or thirties—and some of us may say, even in his forties—to picture the day when he will be 60. But the effort should be made, especially because it may well be that he is going to live into his eighties.

Fifteen years, twenty years, or possibly more, on inadequate retirement pay, especially with inflation, is a soul destroying experience. It means a sudden reduction in one's standard of living; the end of little luxuries and comforts; the counting of pennies for necessities; and sometimes it means the ending of one's days in a dreary bed-sitting room. I am aware that many commercial, industrial and professional organisations know these things and understand the position, and they provide supplementary pension schemes. But what I hope is that the Government, until they have an adequate old-age pension scheme of their own, will encourage self-effort on the part of everybody.

The second thing is that if a man is to achieve contentment he needs to feel that he is of use to the community. For some, perhaps for many, in the early days of retirement a part-time job is the answer. In my own profession I know the happiness that comes to a priest on retirement from his parish when he is asked to take temporary charge of a vacant benefice, to act as chaplain of a small hospital or to give occasional assistance to an overworked incumbent. Although he is now free from routine responsibilities, he is still proving his worth, and, what is more, is adding to his modest pension.

Then there is the question posed by the noble Baroness a moment or two ago, that as we get older we should be allowed to take humbler positions. I know that in my profession this happens. The late Primate, having given up his Primacy, is now, with great happiness and contentment, looking after a little parish in the West of England. I will give your Lordships another example. Some months ago I attended a work centre for elderly people. They had come from backgrounds and experience of all kinds, but now they were engaged two days a week in basket making and woodwork. It was a happy community, made especially happy that day because two of them, well on in their seventies, had just announced their intention to get married.

My contention is that if these ventures were better known, and it were appreciated that further work does not involve crippling financial penalties, the response would be greater. Perhaps the noble Lord who is to reply for the Government will tell us whether literature giving suggestions of part-time employment is provided, and whether steps can be taken to ensure that the right information gets into the right hands at the right time. I should also like to know whether businesses are encouraged to keep some places for partly retired personnel. I know something of what is done for the disabled, and I am wondering whether in these days of shortage of labour there can be a more imaginative scheme for the elderly who want to work and retain their vigour.

The next item on the agenda for contentment is training for leisure. This training must, of course, begin years before retirement—indeed, in our early days at school. The trouble with many of us who are now in the second part of life is that we have not been so trained and we are ill-equipped to deal constructively with long periods of leisure. That is why the Government and the local authorities should help. Yesterday in this House we were discussing young people, and speaker after speaker insisted on the wisdom of encouraging young people to accept responsibilities and to use some of their leisure in the service of the community. But the same is true for every generation, including the elderly. For instance, in many parts of South London we have clubs and canteens for old people, and we train some of them to run their own clubs and canteens. Again, we find that old people often are the best visitors of other old people because of their reliability, experience, patience and tolerance. There is a variety of openings in the fields of schools, hospitals and social welfare for elderly people to make a valuable and positive contribution.

What I should like to see is a well advertised drive on the part of local authorities to make known to retired people the opportunities that exist in their locality for voluntary service. But leisure must include opportunities for amusement and recreation, and this is why I should like the Government to consider ways and means of extending facilities for older people to go to theatres, concerts and exhibitions, and to travel at reduced prices. Perhaps grant aid to local authorities might be given by the Government.

The other item on the agenda for contentment is appropriate housing—and I underline the word "appropriate". Too often elderly people are in houses that are too large for them; or else, when they have to give them up, perhaps for financial reasons or because they no longer have the physical capacity to run them, they are compelled to live in restricted and gloomy quarters. The difficulties are real. A married couple is accustomed to the house in which their family has grown up and have come to love the house over a period of years, and although several rooms are now vacant, they are disinclined to move. This is a pity because the house could be put to better use, I should have thought that a little wise propaganda on the part of the local authority might help. If the couple could be told of sensible alternative accommodation and—I think this is so important—if they were prepared to consider the alternative accommodation, they could be relieved of the practical anxieties associated with moving, and then they might be more ready for a change, especially if the change were to take them into a mixed community rather than into one consisting entirely of elderly people.

My Lords, in making this short speech from this Bench I hope I have indicated the desire of the Church—and in this matter I am sure one can speak for more than just one's own Church—to cooperate with both voluntary and statutory bodies in their concern for the older members of the community. Much is already being done to give significance to old age and to banish the fears that spring from loneliness and enforced idleness. What I ask the Government and all parties concerned is, not only to increase the amenities, but to make them known so that old people and those approaching retirement will have some of the fears removed by the knowledge of what is available to them.

4.58 p.m.

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH

My Lords, I had not intended intervening in this debate, but I should very much like to congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Emmet of Amberley, from these Benches on a most remarkable speech. As one of her neighbours in a very beautiful country to which many people have retired, I am especially happy to pay tribute to the great work that she has done in the cause which we all have so much at heart and which we are discussing this afternoon. I hope this will be considered in a non-Party manner, and that the noble Baroness will frequently address us in the future. I cannot quite accept her as a "fallen angel", but I do congratulate her none the less. She made three most interesting suggestions to which I hope the Government will give close attention: first, on the earnings rule; secondly, on the transferability of pensions; and, thirdly, on the attitude of the middle aged. In offering my felicitations, I hope that the Government will pay due attention to the remarks made by the noble Baroness.

5.00 p.m.

LORD CITRINE

My Lords, when I entered the House this afternoon I did not contemplate that I should be taking any part in this debate; but the list of speakers is rather shorter than usual, and as this is a highly important social and economic subject I feel that it is incumbent upon any of us who has any experience of this subject to make his contribution. I should like to follow the noble Earl who has just spoken in congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady-Emmet of Amberley, on the delightfully constructive speech which she made this afternoon, and, like all your Lordships, I hope we shall hear from her on many occasions. I am sorry the House is not better attended for this subject, but I think we all understand that the very severe weather must have kept many Members away this afternoon. I hesitate to call it "wretched weather", because in my old age I find that every day is a good day; every day, and every kind of weather has its charm, has its advantage, and has my deep appreciation. I hope I am going to have it for a long time to come.

I have referred to this as a social and economic subject. We are all aware of the tragedy of men and women being forced into compulsory retirement at a time when their capacities are demonstrably, perhaps not at their maximum, but certainly sufficiently great to enable them to continue to make a useful contribution to the industry or occupation in which they have been engaged. The noble Lord, Lord Crook, in bringing forward this Motion has drawn attention to the many agencies which are being set up, or which have been in existence for some time, to deal with the problem of leisure in retirement. That is a useful and desirable form of social provision, and one which I, too, should like to see considerably developed. My remarks have reference to a different phase of the subject. It is demonstrable that longevity is increasing—not merely that it has increased, but that it is increasing. It seems to follow logically that, if people are able to retain their mental and physical capacities for years after what, perhaps, two generations ago would have been regarded as their maximum, something ought to be done to utilise those faculties.

How do people live in retirement? Those who are fortunate enough to be qualified for pensions, and those who are able, under the scheme of social insurance, to participate in the national retirement pension scheme, and even old age pensions, are provided for, but usually, as the noble Lord, Lord Crook, said, on a somewhat lower standard of life than that to which they have been accustomed. That in itself provides a problem, and those of us who have not felt the brunt of it are very grateful because we have been able to escape it. The pension system, when I first came into industry and trade unionism, was a rarity in private employment—I am now speaking particularly of industrial employment, and not so much of commerce. That system has been a welcome development over my lifetime. But I think the brutal fact is that those who live in retirement are making no material contribution to the wealth of the community in which they have lived and are living.

It would seem to follow, therefore, looking at it from a broad point of view, that the whole community is being deprived of the service of people, some of whom have exceptional maturity, exceptional wisdom, and exceptional experience. Those people are very often turned off against their will and have to retire, as it were, in the absence of adequate provision by social means or their own intelligent occupation, into a period when they make no contribution in the material sense. Like, perhaps, a few of your Lordships, I have long passed what is regarded as the retirement age. I am approaching 78 years of age, and while I know perfectly well that I must long ago have passed my physical and intellectual zenith, if I ever had one—something which your Lordships have probably detected long ago—I have no complaint whatever to make in regard to myself. Had I remained the Secretary of the Trades Union Congress, I should have been compelled to terminate my work at the age of 65. The Congress has a rigid rule, which was applied, perhaps for a good cause, back in 1923. It can be that people hang on to their jobs too long, and that may cause a reaction which, in present circumstances, seems to have gone to an extreme—that is to say, that people, irrespective of capacity, irrespective of fitness, are compelled to retire, in some cases at the age of 60 (I believe that applies to the Civil Service and in some trade unions) and at 65 in general industry and commerce.

I was retained as the Chairman of the British Electricity Authority until the age of 70, and I retired from that post at my own suggestion—I have no doubt that it was a welcome one. But I continued in part-time employment in that industry and also in the Atomic Energy Authority. So far as I am concerned, I am making no complaint whatever, and I am speaking, I hope, in a completely objective sense. I recall a body called the Carr Committee, which was referred to by the noble Baroness in her speech. I studied that Report, not because of its personal application but because of the general policy that was embodied in it. Mr. Carr, whom I met once or twice, seemed to me to be one of the more progressive Conservatives—a phenomenon which we on the Labour Benches have observed with some interest.

LORD ST. OSWALD

But without emulation.

LORD CITRINE

And who quite evidently had breadth of mind which, to say the least, is commendable. What was the doctrine they laid down? Note age, but fitness, should be the test as to whether a man or a woman should or should not be retired from his or her employment. I recognise, as everybody does, the difficulties of applying a test of that kind. I recognise how easy it is to create jealousies by retaining certain people whose fitness, both mental and physical, commend themselves to management, and discharging others because of what management considers is the absence of those qualities.

All that, of course, is something which has to be faced; but the question which we must answer, I am sure, whether it is in the near or the remote future, is whether compulsory retirement at 65 is not far too early and, as time goes on, will prove to be even more so, and whether retirement should not be made voluntary, so that those who feel they cannot, or do not wish to, carry on may retire. This will become an economic problem. In this country there has been a dearth of work people of every kind, almost through the whole of the postwar period. We have welcomed people coming into this country to take on work for which there were insufficient British workers of all kinds—administrative, managerial perhaps, and certainly manual workers. There were not the British workers to be found for these jobs because they were already in other employment.

The time will come when we shall be compelled to recognise that it is bad business, as well as socially undesirable, for people to be compelled to leave an employment which physically and mentally they are perfectly capable of carrying on; we shall be forced to recognise that compulsory retirement in those cases is not only something which is detrimental to the individual but, I believe, fundamentally bad for the community as a whole.

LORD SORENSEN

My Lords, I am quite sure that we have enjoyed the debate this afternoon. It has been informative and, on all sides, very sensitive to the problem which confronts us. We are particularly obliged, I am sure, to the noble Lord, Lord Crook, for having introduced the matter for our consideration, but, in addition, I share with others the feeling of deep appreciation of the maiden speech of one who was—I will not say my former colleague, because that sounds as if she is no longer my colleague, but certainly a colleague in another place. Her contribution to our discussion is very characteristic of her. We all know her to be one who has always had the care of elderly people and others at heart; and what she has said to-day, including her very cogent proposals, we have taken into our minds, and certainly for my part I will see that they are transmitted to the appropriate Ministry. May I again congratulate her very warmly indeed on the contribution she has made?

It is appropriate that this discussion should take place to-day on the subject of the elderly, for it stands in contrast to the debate we had yesterday on youth, introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Oakridge. It is appropriate in another way because the constituency I had the honour to represent for many years had among its electors nearly 25 per cent. who were old age pensioners, and naturally that brought me into contact with their needs very intimately indeed. There were many difficulties one saw in meeting with those who had retired from their usual vocations or avocations, and some of the remarks made to-day were relevant to that fact.

Some 16,000 or 17,000 people in the Borough of Leyton are elderly people—I will not say aged persons, but elderly people—whom I got to know as well as, I am sure, other Members of this House have got to know similar categories in their own district.

There is perhaps a third appropriateness in so far as some noble Lords in this House are fortunate or prudent enough to become Members of it for retirement from their career occupations, to quote the actual words used by the noble Lord, Lord Crook. Lest I be misunderstood, I am not suggesting that this indicates a senile retirement, but rather a transference of responsibility from one area to another. We here, many of us elderly persons, find in and through this place ample opportunity to continue our service to the whole of the community, and we bring to it, I hope, the advantage of much experience and a certain measure of wisdom. That, of course, means we are setting an example to the rest of our community of a comparatively similar age to find ways and means by which they can enjoy what has often been called the evening of their years.

But retirement to-day is very different from what it was in former years. Perhaps some of us recall the words of Shakespeare when he says: The sixth age shifts Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon, With spectacles on nose and pouch on side. I must confess I do not feel that applies to me in any respect, excepting in regard to my spectacles, and I am sure it does not apply to any other Member of this House. In these days many more than formerly are retiring from what have been described as career occupations, because in former days so many people retired straight to the graveyard, as indeed so many of the old records indicate.

As a Free Church minister of religion, and therefore able to counter-balance in some measure the impressive episcopal phalanx so brilliantly represented here, in this capacity I once attended a cremation service, and as the cortege was half-an-hour late in arriving I spent that half hour looking through the registers of deaths and found that in fact the average age of those cremated was well over 72 years of age. That is confirmed by national statistics. We know to-day that round about that age is the expectancy of life at birth. It is more so for women than for men, therefore giving a certain advantage to all little girls born rather than to boys. So we may generally anticipate that, from now onward, far more will live beyond the threescore-years-and-ten than was the case when the scythe took away so many at an early age, wasting their lives, both personally and socially.

The noble Lord, Lord Crook, reminded us that proportionally twice as many persons of over pensionable age exist to-day as compared with 1915. I am not sure of his figures. I believe he actually quoted the figure of 5½ million. My own figures indicate that in Great Britain in 1963 there were nearly 6 million—in fact 5.99 million—in receipt of pensions, and that in 1964 those of pensionable age in the United Kingdom, as distinct from those receiving pensions, amounted to 8-1 million; and it is estimated that this figure will increase to 10.1 million by 1990. Those figures are very significant indeed. It means that from now onward we shall have a large section of our British human community who will retire from their usual functions as workers in one way or the other, and have to spend many years in retirement. Whatever we may think of birth control, certainly we have been highly successful in death control. The mortality rates have steadily declined, and I think will go on declining; but it is interesting to note that so far as those of 85 years or over are concerned the decline is much less substantial. We still have to deal with that particular problem.

This claim of a large section of elderly citizens that they should secure the maximum enjoyment in the evening of their years poses a heavy problem, because old age is no joy for, to quote the Psalmist, it is full of labour and sorrow. Fortunately, this is less so now than it was in distant days, for we now have a Welfare State and a system of State retirement pensions steadily being amplified, stage by stage, payment of which was originally, I would remind noble Lords, bitterly resented by some of our own predecessors. But the community now accepts responsibility for elderly persons, and that is why the noble Lord, Lord Crook, when he referred to our responsibility was merely emphasising what indeed we now accept.

But I would suggest there are four categories into which we can place those members of the community whom we have been discussing this afternoon. First of all, there are the affluent, including some noble Lords in this House. For them there is no statutory limitation on the amount they earn or receive. Their income can ensure them whatever enjoyment they desire, and therefore we are not concerned with that section of the community.

Then there are the educated. I would submit that their cultural interests provide, or should provide, ample satisfaction for them in their later years of life, whether in literature, music, art or otherwise. Of course, it does not follow that the affluent and the educated are necessarily synonymous. You can have one or the other; you can have both. On the other hand, I remember an elderly french polisher who lived a very straightforward, honest life of service to his community. He became deputy mayor of a certain town, and then had to retire on a very miserable pension; but he counted himself a millionaire because then, for the first time, he felt that there was ample opportunity to draw on the riches of his little library, and other books, to his heart's and mind's content. In that respect, though poor, he was indeed a wealthy man. But we need not bother very much about such people, because they find their own satisfaction in the way I have suggested.

There is the third category of those who are chronically sick or infirm. Many, of course, do suffer from mental or physical collapse, sometimes due to the strain of their lives in one way or another. Large numbers of those are in hospitals or institutions, and undoubtedly the improvement of their lot in those institutions is very necessary. Much attention is being given to geriatrics but much more attention should be given, and I have great sympathy with the noble Baroness when she referred to those elderly men who are facing brick walls with apparently nothing to do. I, too, have seen that, as many of us have done. It reminds us that in the institutional field much has still to be done to assist those in such great psychological and emotional need.

But there is a fourth category, and this is the category to which we are giving our attention this afternoon: the category of the relatively fit and well, who are dwelling in their own homes or in the homes of their children. Undoubtedly the initial need of all in this category, whatever may be their other interest or hobbies, is an adequate pension, or National Assistance, to enable them at least to secure the basic requirements of their physical lives. For even though some in this category may devour books, they are not a very nourishing substitute for the food they require.

Much is being done in this direction. Pensions have been increased, not merely relatively but absolutely, and in the days to come we hope that we shall see a still further increase in them. I share the expressions of sympathy that many have made to-day with those who have to bear the alleged harshness of the earnings rule. But here again we can rejoice in the fact that this is being made much more moderate than it was formerly, and large numbers of people will be able to earn far more without having their pension curtailed than was the case until comparatively recently. Nevertheless, it is true that, unless ways and means can be found by which the sheer basic economic needs of people are met, they cannot enjoy their lives to the full in a way that would otherwise be possible.

Reference has been made to the necessity of providing work for those who still want to continue beyond the statutory time when they can draw their pension. Something has now been done along those lines, for it is, I understand, within the powers of local authorities to establish workshops and some have done precisely that. Voluntary organisations also have done this—not many I agree. But here is a field of enterprise on the part of both voluntary organisations and local authorities which should attract those who wish to serve elderly people in this way. It is recognised, of course, that very often those who would go to such workshops are not as 100 per cent. fit as they once were. The noble Lord, Lord Citrine, admits that possibility—though it certainly does not apply in his case. But the fact of that lower fitness is taken into consideration: work in these places proceeds at a slower pace. The jobs given to these people are within their capacity, and I know many who have been employed in that way, working at a lower tempo, for perhaps four or five hours a day, instead of seven or eight, who have certainly found that a very fine means of fulfilling themselves.

On the other hand, while there are many who on retirement feel their world has come to an end, that they are not wanted and that therefore the rest of their lives are just to be lives of drift, I would say there are quite a number who anticipate with great joy the end of the period of compulsory labour. I agree that it is not always an unmixed blessing for an elderly man at last to find more time with his wife at home, for there are wives who, though they may rejoice at the greater period of time they share with their spouses, soon begin to wish they were back at work. In saying this, I do not, of course, speak out of my own bitter experience, for my wife is also a very busy woman, even though she is approximately the same age as myself.

But we have to accept the fact that there are a number of people who, having borne the strain for many years, look forward with great anticipation to being relieved of the compulsory work and employment they have had to pursue for many years. Imagine, on a day like this, the strain imposed on so many elderly people who have not yet reached retirement age, when they have to travel by bus, often standing on one leg, with others, or in the Tube; who have to start work when, at last, they reach their particular factory or shop or office, and who when they return home in the evening, once more have to bear the severe strain of congested travel. Such people are only too glad when they reach the stage when they can feel that the added strain on their daily lives of congested travel need be no more. Those people are in our minds at the present time.

What can they do? First of all, let us realise that things are not quite so bad as they sometimes appear. Quite a proportion of elderly people feel that at last they can get added leisure for their hobbies and interests. There are old-age penisoners' associations in many parts of the country. There are "Darby and Joan" clubs; there is church guild and club life; there are mild sports which many pursue. Nothing is more delightful in summer time than to see the pleasant scene of many venerable gentlemen and ladies pondering, almost prayerfully, over large black balls gently curving on a green sward. And there are those who are quite satisfied with the humble satisfaction of a game of dominoes in the local pub, or those who potter around their gardens or allotments, where available, or go in for painting or carving, or even for plying needles.

From time to time in the Borough of Leyton we have had an exhibition of arts and crafts by elderly people. It is amazing to see among the exhibits some wonderful pieces of work performed by people of 85 or 90, including men who can show their prowess in embroidery and in knitting. I am not suggesting that all elderly men should take up embroidery or knitting. I am saying merely that here is a sphere which needs greater encouragement. For, after all, if those have shown what they can do in the world of simple arts and crafts so satisfactorily as I have described, why should not others be encouraged to prepare for their old age in exactly the same way? We used locally, I am sure, to foster this interest in hobbies and interests, as alternatives or supplementary to the television hypnosis; for although there is a certain attraction and satisfaction in the fact that elderly people are now able to see the world revealed before them on the phantom screen, there is a certain seduction about it. I see no reason why, long before retirement, men and women should not be encouraged to take an interest in other things than their own work; why should they not go about a variety of things so as to prepare for the day when they can sit down to concentrate on them more fully?

I have already said that it is within the power of local authorities to establish workshops if they so desire. It is also within the power of local authorities to establish centres for the aged; and many have done precisely this. I believe that there are 7,000 social clubs which have been initiated by local authorities in the country, and some 200 day centres, where not merely recreation and entertainment but also facilities for the hobbies that I have mentioned are provided. Certainly, there is much scope here for material to fill up what otherwise might seem to be a vacuum.

I would go further, and suggest that undoubtedly there is scope for much social service in sending out to a large number of elderly people who are living lonely lives, so bringing them good cheer and human contact. I am afraid that few people appreciate how many of these lonely folk shrink back like hermits into a little hut; and there, with their meagre pension, live their solitary lives from week to week with hardly any human contact. Here is a sphere where churches, charitable bodies and all those filled with a sense of social service, can certainly bring comfort and human feeling to those who otherwise might feel that they are entirely forgotten.

In the sphere of education much can be done. Unfortunately, the figures indicate that the number of elderly people attending one or other of the classes run by the Workers' Educational Association and similar bodies is very small indeed. It is true, I am afraid, that, except to those who in their early years have a love of education, education seems so often to end when at last they have finished with their merely technical school career. Why cannot we in middle age stir up greater interest in education for its own sake, with the realisation that education is never ended; that it goes on perpetually? If, therefore, there could be greater encouragement to men and women in their middle age to join classes, where together they could ponder on worthwhile things, I am quite sure that some, at least, when their old age was reached would look forward with pleasure and joy to the opportunity to explore still further the vast world of the mind.

I think some reference has been made this afternoon to housing. The interesting thing about this is that theoretically there is ample accommodation for all people in this country, including the elderly people. Again, if I may quote my own ex-constituency, although there are more housing units in the Borough of Leyton now than there were years ago, there is still a long housing waiting list. Why? One reason is that larger numbers of elderly people, in couples, or alone when their spouse has died, go on living in a home, often with two or three rooms quite unused. On the other hand, it is equally true that local authorities have in many cases been able to arrange an exchange between the home in which the elderly people are living, on the one hand, and smaller accommodation with more amenities. Much more could be done in this way, and preparation for it could be made before retiring age.

Then one must realise that local authorities all over the country are providing an increasing number of small flats and bungalows appropriate for the precise needs of elderly people. Some 35,000 to 40,000 are now so housed. Beyond that, other accommodation is provided by voluntary bodies. There are miners homes, there are so-called almshouses, which again to some extent meet the need; though here again it is interesting to note that, in some cases, again so far as my ex-constituency is concerned, at one time in order to secure accommodation in one of these almshouses the applicant had to write a sheaf of letters and had to wait two or three or more years before at last being admitted. Now the tendency is reversed and many of these so-called almshouses are empty because people to place in them cannot be found. This is a passing observation which may have no particular relevance, but certainly this housing problem is bound up with the general housing problem. I would say again that I am glad to note that the Ministry of Housing and Local Government has from time to time sent guidance to local authorities on how they can meet this particular need to provide accommodation for the aged.

One knows there are other means by which the aged are being assisted. There are the invaluable services of home helps all over the country. This has brought in incalculable relief and been a blessing to thousands of elderly people, supplemented often by "meals on wheels" and other services run by local authorities or voluntary organisations. There are many other services which are coming to be used by local authorities for the benefit of their elderly citizens. There is one illustration of this in Leyton. There a laundry service is run by the local authority. Every week representatives of that borough go round collecting soiled linen from elderly women who canot easily wash it themselves. I understand that last month well over 3,000 pieces of soiled linen were collected in this way from elderly people, and returned to them in the course of a few days ready for them to use. These are little services which nevertheless can relieve substantially the burden of elderly people.

I would remind the House of the fact that now the Government have decided to enable local authorities to reduce fares on their own transport systems for the benefit of elderly people and old-age pensioners. So far as health is concerned—another matter of which some brief mention was made—obviously this is bound up largely with the question of the health of the community. After all, health in old age is partly dependent on what life was like in earlier years for the health of a tree is determined partly by its roots; and therefore we look forward to increasing good health in this country from which, of course, the elderly people, as well as the rest, will benefit. In one or two parts of the country—in Middlesex, for example; and I believe, in Rutherglen, in Glasgow—health clinics provide advice and assistance for those about to retire. This might be considered as a desirable service by more local authorities.

No doubt the Pre-Retirement Association has in mind, as highly desirable, services of the kind I have described, and a desire to foster and encourage them. I am therefore grateful, as I am sure we all are, that Lord Crook, who is the President of that body, has brought to our attention this afternoon what the Pre-Retirement Association desire to encourage in our midst. The Government will take note of this. I will pass on all the observations and proposals that have been made. I am sure that they will be considered very carefully.

I am also sure that every one of us feels that this debate has been valuable in relation to making our later years more worth while. I say "our" later years collectively, because I and other noble Lords here in our riper years do not want to detach ourselves from the rest of the community. We belong to the rest of the same age group as ourselves; we are members one of another. Therefore, as I say, the debate has been useful in contributing to the making of our lives not for plaintive vegetation and for lonely hardship or melancholic senility, but for an autumn of mellow fulfilment. I therefore express my appreciation of what my noble friend Lord Crook has done to-day, and I am sure that his words will bear fruit.

5.41 p.m.

LORD CROOK

My Lords, I rise to thank those who have taken part in this debate, and first of all to say to the noble Baroness how glad I am that she did so. It was the first time I have heard the noble Lady speak in this House. I have, however, had other opportunities of listening to her, either in the other place or in New York in the United Nations; and I join with everybody else in hoping that we shall hear her on many other occasions. She brought back many old memories to me when she spoke about Hackney. I started my life in the employment of the Poor Law Guardians, and was to go on to work for many years in connection with the reform of the Poor Law. I well remember the handing over to which she referred, when I was a co-opted member of the L.C.C. Public Health Committee. May I say, too, how much I appreciated the words of the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Southwark in his intervention.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD)

My Lords, I hope the noble Lord will not think me unpleasant in interrupting him, but I understand he has no right of reply.

LORD CROOK

This is a Motion and I have always replied in the past. I am moving for Papers, and under the Standing Orders I have a right of reply.

THE EARL OF LONGFORD

I am entirely wrong. I apologise to my noble friend.

LORD CROOK

My noble friend Lord Citrine's intervention I did not expect until he come and spoke to me. I do not know that we need worry about Lord Citrine finding any difficulties in his life, because I have known him for many years and at his quite advanced age he finds no difficulty in coming and addressing us to-day. He reminded me that I had read in a newspaper on Tuesday that it was my birthday, and it is apparently only one year off before I myself shall be numbered among those in the retirement group. It is a chastening thought. May I thank the noble Lord who replied for the Government? I have known him for many years and know how much the old people, and indeed people in Leyton in general, love him, and how much they missed him when he decided to put off retirement to come here and work instead. I thank noble Lords for their contributions, and beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.