§ 2.43 p.m.
§ LORD CHORLEYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in making their arrangements for the review of the internal government of the teacher training colleges, they will see to it that the universities are effectively represented upon the reviewing body.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR EDUCATION AND SCIENCE (LORD BOWDEN)My Lords, the local authorities are already engaged in friendly conversations with representatives of the staffs of the colleges of education about the government of the colleges. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science has offered the local authority associations, the Association of Teachers in Training Colleges and Departments of Education, and the voluntary college authorities the help of his Department in convening a small study group to review the matter. If this suggestion proves acceptable, he has no doubt that the study group will wish to invite the universities to play a part in these discussions. I gladly reaffirm the Government's desire to see closer academic links between the colleges of education and the universities, including the grant of degrees in suitable cases.
§ LORD CHORLEYMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his reply, am I to understand that the study group is to be appointed by the local authorities or by the Secretary of State?
§ LORD BOWDENMy Lords, the study group will in fact consist of those people who are most directly concerned with the government of the colleges—namely, the local authorities and all the other bodies which control and operate them, on the one hand, and of the staff associations, 1025 on the other. These two bodies must take the initiative in the first place, and my right honourable friend has, as I have said, offered the services of his Department in order to facilitate the formation and the early work of this study group. It is obvious that many bodies will be concerned in these negotiations sooner or later, including particularly, and very early on, the universities. But we feel that it would be better for the group to consist, in the first instance, of those people who are directly and personally concerned in the matters at issue.
§ LORD CHORLEYDoes the noble Lord not realise that his answer will give great disappointment in univesity quarters? Time after time university representatives are left off the study groups. Does the noble Lord not know that the representatives of the teacher training colleges are unanimously of opinion that the university representatives ought to be brought into this review at an operative level, and that if this is not done the cause of higher education will be in great danger of suffering a serious set-back?
§ LORD BOWDENMy Lords, this particular question was very much in our minds when we discussed this point. The point is that it is not really for the Secretary of State to impose on the local education authorities and the staff associations, who are obviously the people most concerned, any additional members of a group, in the first instance at least. But he expects to use his good offices with them, and he expects that they themselves will wish to make certain that the universities are involved in these discussions from the very beginning.
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, is it not a little unfortunate that the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, has apparently so little confidence in the local education authorities in this country?
§ LORD CHORLEYI shall have to put this observation in the form of a supplementary question to the Minister. Is it not quite clear that the Robbins Report proposals on this matter cannot be effectively carried out unless the universities are brought in very closely and intimately from the beginning; and that this reply, which shows that they 1026 will not be brought in closely and intimately, will obviously be a very serious set-back to the whole problem of higher education as it is evidenced in the teacher training colleges?
§ LORD BOWDENMy Lords, I must, I am afraid, repeat again the assurance that I gave to the House before. There are many problems at issue in the governments of these colleges, with some of which the universities are concerned, and with some of which they have nothing to do. The association between the training colleges and the universities is of great importance, and the Government wish to further it by all possible means. But it seemed that the legal position was such that the best way to start these negotiations was by offering our help to the two bodies most concerned, who are anxious to get our advice and help, and that as soon as the study group had been convened to suggest to them that the other parties concerned should be brought in urgently and quickly.