WATER RESOURCES ACT APPLICATION FORMS (Hansard, 30 June 1965)

§ LORD CLITHEROE
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF LAND AND NATURAL RESOURCES (LORD MITCHISON)
My Lords, all those who abstract water have had since the beginning of April to apply for a licence, and in most areas the river authorities concerned had the forms available then. The Act itself makes clear the basis on which applicants for licences of right would have to establish their claim and this has been known since 1963. There has been publicity in the Press and by radio, at conferences, by explanatory leaflet and by letter to known abstracters, about the need to apply within the time limit. Farmers' and landowners' associations are among the organisations which have been particularly active in advising their members. Her Majesty's Government do not accept that it has been impossible for 849 any abstracters to make application in the time allowed by the Act, but my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government has asked all river authorities to use reasonable discretion in regard to defects or omissions in applications which may occur because the applicant has difficulty in obtaining the whole of the requisite information in time.

§ LORD CLITHEROE
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for what he has said, but I cannot accept his suggestion that this matter was brought to the notice of the general public in due time. It was advertised in my local paper on June 18 of this year. The Regulations under which this was done were laid before Parliament on March 31, and came into operation on April 1, which does not give very much time. The forms were not obtainable—

§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD)
My Lords, could the noble Lord put his point in the form of a question?

§ LORD CLITHEROE
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that forms were not obtainable in many offices, and that it is quite impossible to obtain sufficient copies of ordnance survey maps to produce the maps in triplicate which have to be attached to the form, and that a large number of people in the country are totally unaware that this is going on? Is it appropriate, in the year in which we are celebrating Magna Carta, to deprive people of their rights because they do not fill up a form of which they have never heard, by June 30?

§ LORD MITCHISON
My Lords, in reply to the noble Lord's speech, I should like to observe that the information asked for by this form is required by the Act itself and by the Regulations made under it; that all possible steps have been taken to advertise what is required; that the period concerned is specified in the Act itself, and that there would have to be amending legislation if it were to be altered. The reason for this is that the boards must clearly have information as to existing users and applications for licences of right before they can deal with the question who is to get the rest of the water available. I will gladly make any specific inquiries that the noble 850 Lord requires, but I really cannot accept the proposition that not enough has been done to bring this question to the attention of people, nor can I accept the proposition that the time has been insufficient for what is needed. It is perfectly true that you can bring a farmer to a form but you cannot make him read it, but none the less we have done our best.

§ LORD HASTINGS
My Lords, may I draw the noble Lord's attention to the opening words of his first Answer, that all who abstract water have had time to apply for a licence—I think those were more or less the words he used. But would he make it clear that there are large sections of the rural community who do not have to apply for a licence of right at all and who can go on using the water without making an application?

§ LORD MITCHISON
My Lords, I hoped we had made everything about this necessarily somewhat complicated Act, introduced by the last Government, and the Regulations under it, as clear as possible to everybody concerned. I think that if my reply is read in conjunction with the Question asked it will be found to be reasonably clear, although I would never be too sure about that. I can only refer people to the information that has been given, to the information that is available, to the Act and to the Regulations themselves. I should only invite further misunderstanding if I were to try to make supplementary explanations.

§ LORD CHESHAM
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that despite what the Act may say and the notice that may have been given, the forms concerned have been in short supply and the maps necessary to accompany the forms in even shorter supply? Therefore the matter is not quite as easy as he has made it sound.

§ LORD MITCHISON
My Lords, I am not aware of that. I have been into this question and there have been one or two places where the forms and maps have been slower in arriving than others, but broadly speaking that suggestion is not true. I think it is the case that everybody who took the question seriously and started off at or about the time he was invited to start off has had plenty of time to make the application. If there 851 is information required by the forms that he has been unable to get, the noble Lord will notice that I said that local authorities have been asked to use reasonable discretion.

§ LORD CHESHAM
My Lords, that is an extremely reasonable thing to say; but may I ask whether the noble Lord thinks that if he had been on the filling-in end of this application he would be quite as happy as he is to-day?

§ LORD MITCHISON
My Lords, this is the season for filling in income tax forms and nobody is really happy about filling in forms just now.

§ LORD CHESHAM
My Lords, is that the reason why it is known as the "silly season"?

§ LORD CLITHEROE
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that on one farm, for instance, there may be twenty sources of supply, springs for water troughs and so on, and it is absurd to say that three months is adequate to survey all the hill farms in England?

§ LORD MITCHISON
My Lords, I do not want to prolong this discussion, but the period of three months is laid down in the Act and so is the information required. It is called "the initial period" in the Act. I do not want to have to defend the previous Government to the last ditch against one of its usual supporters, but I think that in this case they were right, having regard to the existence of other people who would want to come along and claim licences afterwards—not the licences of right about which we are now talking. I hope I can pacify the noble Lord a little. If he will tell me of any particular case or give me any local information—though not now, of course—I will do my best to get it dealt with for him.

§ LORD CLITHEROE
My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord, but has he not already pointed out that he does not have power to extend the Act? Surely he could have taken care not to introduce the Regulations until due notice had been given to everybody?

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, may I take the noble Lord up on his last invitation? Having had something to do with 852 the introduction of this admirable piece of legislation, I, as a filler-in, have met with many of the difficulties which my noble friends have met with, and therefore I would avail myself of the noble Lord's kind offer.

§ LORD WISE
My Lords, may I ask a question from this side of the House? Has the noble Lord seen the form which has been issued for this purpose? If he has, may I refer him to Part C and suggest to him that it is not at all applicable to farmers and suchlike people, and if in future further forms are issued instead of this form which came from the last Government, will he make them more simple?

§ LORD MITCHISON
My Lords, my noble friend does not seem to be aware that the form was part of the Order. It is not something which has been issued since. The Order was not prayed against at the time, and the Order at present obliges us to use this form. Moreover, the final date is June 30, so it would be a little late now to make a second Order.