§ THE EARL OF KINNOULLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they view existing powers of controlling motor traffic fumes as adequate; what results have been achieved under these powers; and whether they consider any further powers are necessary.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD LINDGREN)My Lords, until recently research indicated that existing means of controlling motor vehicles' fumes were adequate. Roadside checks by the Department's vehicle examiners and police enforcement are reducing the nuisance caused by diesel-engined vehicles. If medical evidence confirms, that additional controls are necessary over fumes from petrol-driven vehicles, Her Majesty's Government will consider what action to take.
§ THE EARL OF KINNOULLMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his reply, may I ask whether he would agree that if certain modifications were made by manufacturers of motor vehicles there would be a considerable reduction in the quantity of carbon monoxide that at present pollutes the air?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, chemistry was not in the curriculum of the school I went to and therefore I am in danger of getting into deep water here. But I am informed that so far as diesel-engine fumes are concerned carbon monoxide is absent. The danger arises 610 from petrol-engined vehicles. Until comparatively recently it was not felt to be a serious problem, but recent investigations in London have shown that some danger is likely to arise, and in conjunction with the various departments and medical research laboratories we are watching this very closely. The Americans, too, have legislation which they are introducing in Califoria shortly, and we are watching that as well.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that when motoring around London it is noticeable that almost the worst offenders are the diesel taxis? Would it not be possible to see that the engines are so adjusted that they do not emit quite so much fumes?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, again I must make it clear that from the chemical or engineering point of view I cannot answer definitely, but I am informed that the danger to health arises not from diesel fumes, from which carbon monoxide is absent, but from petrol-driven engines. In Oxford Street, for instance, on a recent test the level of carbon monoxide was quite serious from the Department's point of view.
§ LORD CARRINGTONBut the diesel is very disagreeable.
§ LORD LINDGRENYes, my Lords. But not everything that is disagreeable is necessarily dangerous to health.
§ VISCOUNT BRENTFORDMy Lords, quite apart from the question of danger to health, would the noble Lord not agree that the present exit provided by the manufacturers for exhaust fumes from petrol-engined vehicles and diesel vehicles, is just about as inconvenient to the public as it can be? Not only are they sprayed with an offensive matter out of these exhaust pipes, but they are also saturated with an unpleasant gas, whatever it may be, whether dangerous or not.
§ LORD LINDGRENYes, my Lords; and both the manufacturers of diesel vehicles and the manufacturers of the normal petrol-engined vehicles are cooperating most effectively with the Department on the question of vehicle construction. This is particularly so with 611 the car manufacturers, because the new regulations in California may affect our export of cars to that State.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, the noble Lord has talked about the manufacturers; and, of course, he is right. But is not the trouble very often bad adjustment by the operators of the vehicles?
§ LORD LINDGRENThat is so, my Lords. I do not want to go into too much detail, but the fact is that very little trouble occurs with the best operators. It is with the small operators, where the standards of maintenance are not quite as high as they should be, that we have the most trouble.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, may I pursue the matter—I am sorry to keep the House—one stage further on the question that my noble Leader raised? Who is responsible among the taxi operators for seeing that their vehicles are always in good shape?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, the first responsibility, of course, rests with the owner. So far as the examination of lorries is concerned, that is the responsibility of the vehicle examiners of the Ministry of Transport. But as taxis are mainly dealt with by the Home Office, I should not like to answer "off the cuff".