HL Deb 16 June 1965 vol 267 cc107-10

2.44 p.m.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, on behalf of my noble and learned friend Lord Dilhorne, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in his name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in their opinion, the resolution on Aden adopted on May 17 by the United Nations Special Committee on Colonialism is contrary to Article 2(7) of the United Nations Charter.]

LORD WALSTON

Yes, my Lords. It is one of the reasons why the United Kingdom voted against the resolution.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that since, when answering a Question on this subject yesterday he appeared uncharacteristically coy, we are grateful for his reply this afternoon and hope that it will receive the publicity which it deserves?

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that not only has this Committee contravened the Charter but its activities have been prejudicial to the defence of the Free World, towards which Britain is paying more than her balance of payments can afford, while her irresponsible critics on the Committee, for whose benefit we are doing it, are not contributing a single penny?

LORD WALSTON

My Lords, I am afraid that once again I must dissociate myself from the noble Earl, as I am becoming in the habit of doing on these occasions. I do not go along with him in saying that people who disagree with us are necessarily irresponsible. We feel that they are wrong; we have stated so, and we have given our reasons. But we still believe that the general activities in which they, together with us, are engaged are worth while and, in their own way, play a part in preserving the peace of the Free World.

BARONESS HORSBRUGH

My Lords, would the Minister say whether anybody else on the Committee, apart from the United Kingdom, voted against the resolution?

LORD WALSTON

I am afraid that on this occasion I cannot give the noble Baroness an answer to that question.

LORD COLYTON

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that during a recent visit to Lusaka the Chairman of the Committee advocated the use of force in certain circumstances against some territories in Southern Africa? May I ask whether this is a proper attitude for a Chairman of a United Nations Committee?

LORD WALSTON

I am aware of that, and I am also aware that on that occasion our own representative vehemently dissociated himself from that remark and put our own point of view in a forceful and admirable manner.

LORD HASTINGS

My Lords, since the noble Lord has said that the action of the Committee is against the United Nations Charter, what action do Her Majesty's Government propose to take to see that this sort of thing does not happen in the future? If it does happen in the future, how can they then maintain that the activities of this Committee are merely a matter of disagreement when in fact they are illegal and fundamental?

LORD WALSTON

It is our opinion that they are against the Charter. As the noble Lord well knows, there are many sides to legal matters, and many able and learned people are prepared to argue both sides of the case. We have stated our own case, but we are, after all, only one member of a large body. We have left no doubt in people's minds where we stand, and we will continue to take this position as the occasion arises. We cannot do more than that.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, would it not be possible to bring the matter more generally before the United Nations? It is one thing to vote on a Committee, but it is quite another to raise the matter in the main forum. If, in fact, we feel that this is so fundamental and do not get a satisfactory answer there, would not the Government then reconsider their decision about remaining a member of the Committee?

LORD WALSTON

We consider that on balance it is well worth while remaining a member of the Committee. We feel that in many places, not only in the United Nations but elsewhere, it is worth while remaining a member of organisations, in order to keep contact with people with whom we may have some disagreements, even major ones. We will certainly be prepared to raise it in the wider forum at any time when it seems to us to be a worthwhile exercise to pursue and where the results will justify it.

THE EARL OF SWINTON

My Lords, will the noble Lord adhere to the assurance which he gave to the Leader of the Opposition that, whatever may happen on these Committees, Her Majesty's Government will stand absolutely firm on the fundamental principle that under the Charter no nation has the right to interfere with what is not their business?

LORD WALSTON

I can give a categorical assurance to the noble Earl on that point.

LORD HASTINGS

My Lords, may I ask one further question? Following the noble Lord's argument, if the members of this Committee are so impressed by Her Majesty's Government's reasons for remaining in that Committee and not leaving it, might they not be equally impressed by that argument for allowing the membership of UNESCO to rest on the same basis?

LORD WALSTON

One would hope that possibly they might be in the future. At the present stage they are not.

BARONESS HORSBRUGH

My Lords, would the Minister say which he would consider to be a "worthwhile occasion", as he used those words, for the matter to be brought before the general forum? How many times has the Committee to do illegal things under the Charter?

LORD WALSTON

I am afraid that that question is rather too hypothetical for me to give a specific answer to the noble Baroness. I can only hope that we shall certainly do so when the occasion seems suitable.

LORD KENNET

My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that most United Nations Committees are full of delegates who hold that other delegates are breaking the Charter, and that it would be a sad precedent if we started storming out of Committees because of disagreements on the interpretation of the Charter?

LORD WALSTON

My Lords, I would certainly agree with that.