HL Deb 02 June 1965 vol 266 cc1094-6

2.41 p.m.

LORD WILLIS

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that some firms in the Midlands are providing special toilet facilities for workers of different races, and whether they will take steps to end this practice.]

LORD SORENSEN

My Lords, I presume my noble friend has based his Question on a recent newspaper report, which has been brought to the Minister's attention and a copy of which, indeed, is now before me. It is felt that this type of question is best left for arrangement between the management, the workers and the unions concerned.

LORD WILLIS

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. Would he not agree that this is a most unsatisfactory piece of sordid apartheid, and that the Government should make it quite clear where they stand on this issue? Would he not also agree that the Government ought to indicate that they are in favour of multiracial facilities being provided, and not this kind of seclusion, which can lead only to the sort of apartheid that exists in South Africa to-day?

LORD SORENSEN

My Lords, in fact, the Minister has no power to prohibit the separation of conveniences of this kind. I really think, if I may say so to the noble Lord, that this matter might best be left to negotiation between all those concerned, with a view to a suitable and amicable settlement.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, even if the Minister has no power in this connection, does the noble Lord not agree that the Government have a very strong responsibility to make it perfectly plain where they stand on issues of this kind?

LORD SORENSEN

I am not sure, my Lords, whether the noble Baroness—or, indeed, the questioner himself—fully appreciates that there are different types of sanitary arrangements in different parts of the world. It is not a question of one being better than the other: it is simply a question of usage, custom and tradition. In these circumstances, I suggest that this rather delicate matter—as it is, in more ways than one—might be left to negotiation among. those concerned.

LORD WILLIS

My Lords, is it not wrong for the Minister to assume that, in putting down this Question, I was not aware of the different arrangements that are made in different parts of the world? Is it not perfectly possible for the Minister to make known his views on the matter, even if he has no power? And is it not possible to provide these different types of toilet facilities in one building instead of in separate ones?

LORD SORENSEN

My Lords, different types are already supplied. I hope the noble Lord does not feel hurt because I wondered whether he was fully acquainted with this fact. I just mentioned it because it is one of the factors which must be borne in mind. I want to assure the noble Lord that there is no sense of resentment at his Question, but I would plead with him to appreciate that this matter might be settled quite amicably if left to those concerned, without undue publicity.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, may I ask the Minister, just for information, whether there is more than one type of sanitary convenience supplied in the schools which serve these areas?

LORD SORENSEN

I have no knowledge of that, my Lords. Perhaps the noble Baroness would care to put down a Question on the subject.