§ 3.6 p.m.
§ LORD ELLENBOROUGHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government, in view of the frequent inability on the part of British Rail to provide normal services on the South Eastern region, what means are available for season-ticket holders to recover part of their fares over a period.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD LINDGREN)My Lords, the Conditions on which refunds are made on British Railways season tickets are a matter for the Railways Board, not for my right honourable friend. If the noble Lord cares to address his inquiries to the Board I am sure that they will be able to explain the position.
§ LORD ELLENBOROUGHMy Lords, in thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, which I think is really very unsatisfactory, I should like to point out to him, as one who travels on one of the badly affected lines, that the delays which are taking place are now causing real hardship and stress. It is no longer just a matter of inconvenience. The delays are sometimes of up to three-quarters of an hour, which has been going on for about five weeks.
§ LORD ELLENBOROUGHMy Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord whether, in view of this now chaotic state 888 of affairs, the Government are prepared to make it a contractual obligation on the part of the Railways Board to reimburse the public by means of an adjustment or an extension of season tickets in respect of the full fares which have already been paid, and for which only partial services are being received.
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, a brief reply to that speech is that essentially, there is a contract between the purchaser of a ticket and the Railways Board. The rules and regulations governing the purchase of tickets should be known to the passengers when they purchase one. If they want to know the rules and regulations, they are available at railway stations. This matter has nothing whatever to do with my right honourable friend or Her Majesty's Government.
§ LORD ELLENBOROUGHThen the rules should be changed.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, arising out of the Minister's reply, is it not a fact that the Minister of Transport has overall responsibility to Parliament for the running of British Railways to the satisfaction of Parliament? That being so, is it really right that the noble Lord should just brush off the question by saying that this has nothing to do the Minister, but is a matter for the Railways Board? Secondly, will the Minister please give an assurance that he will ask his right honourable friend to make quite sure that the Railways Board have knowledge of the letter in The Times to-day, which shows a very big contrast between the habits of British Railways and those of the Japanese Railways?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, it has been established ever since there have been nationalised industries, that day-to-day management is essentially a matter for the Boards themselves. Parliament has its opportunity, as shareholders, to discuss the Annual Report of any of these industries when it is presented to Parliament. In regard to the letter in The Times, I have no reason to believe that members of the Railways Board cannot read.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, the noble Lord used the phrase "day-to-day management", but is this not a question of perpetual management?
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, is this really day-to-day management? Is it not a question of broad policy, getting beyond day-to-day management'?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, with the greatest respect, railways have been in existence for over a hundred years. Everybody knows that when he buys a railway ticket there is no contract to take him on any particular train, or by any particular lorry, vehicle or vessel. That has been known for a hundred years, and it is part of the contract between the person who purchases a ticket and the Railways Board.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, will my noble friend not agree that it has always been a Tory principle that the nationalised industries should be run without the interference of Ministers?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, I agree.