HL Deb 12 July 1965 vol 268 cc23-9

3.47 p.m.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD)

My Lords, with permission, I should like to repeat a Statement which my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has just made in another place, about the refusal of the North Vietnamese authorities to grant a visa to a Foreign Office official. His words were:

"The facts are as follows. When we were informed that my honourable friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance would be welcomed in Hanoi, we decided that it would be helpful if he were accompanied by a Foreign Office First Secretary, Mr. Donald Murray. Soundings in London confirmed that a visa would be available for him. In the event, when my honourable friend and the official concerned were half-way to Vientiane the North Vietnamese Chargé d'Affaires in Vientiane informed Her Majesty's Ambassador there that a visa had been authorised for my honourable friend only. Representations on this matter were made in Vientiane, but it became clear that no instructions had been given to the Chargé d'Affaires concerned to issue the second visa. In these circumstances we had to decide whether my honourable friend should go to Hanoi alone. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and I, though disappointed at the fact that the second visa was not forthcoming, and relying on the fact that Her Majesty's Consul-General in Hanoi was available for consultation and advice, decided that the issues at stake were too great to warrant cancelling my honourable friend's visit. I remain convinced, and I hope the House will agree, that the decision was right."

My Lords, that concludes the Statement of the Prime Minister.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, this is the latest chapter in a really extraordinary story. May I ask the Leader of the House a number of questions? First of all, who informed the Government that Mr. Davies would be welcome in Hanoi, and for what purpose would he be welcome? Is it not the case that he was welcome in Hanoi precisely because it was widely known that he was opposed to the American Government policy in South Vietnam? I am bound to say that if this is true (and the reports from Hanoi show that quite clearly it is true) then the choice of Mr. Davies, even if he is Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions, to represent the Prime Minister and the Government is an odd one and not very reassuring. All of us, wherever we sit in the House, want to see an end to the war in Vietnam and South Vietnam, but I think I speak for those who sit on these Benches when I say that we do not think that this will necessarily come about by this sort of strategy.

LORD BOWLES

It might.

THE EARL OF LONGFORD

My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition has asked me certain questions. First, who informed our Government that Mr. Davies would be welcome in Hanoi? I understand that this information was given by two North Vietnamese journalists in London. I was then asked: for what purpose would he be welcome? I am not quite sure what would be in the minds of the people who said he would be welcome, but the purpose of his going there was to set up a case for the reception of the Commonwealth Mission. That has been the sole object of his visit. The noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition then asked me whether Mr. Davies was selected for this purpose because he was known to be opposed to American policy. I have no knowledge of what was in the minds of the people in North Vietnam. I have no reason whatever to suppose that any member of the Government has given any evidence of his being opposed to the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, may I ask another question? As soon as Mr. Davies got to Hanoi, the North Vietnam authorities stated that in no circumstances was his visit connected with the Commonwealth Peace Mission. Did the noble Earl and the Prime Minister know that before he went there and, if they did, would it not have been wiser to find out?

THE EARL OF LONGFORD

My Lords, I should be very much surprised if the noble Lord or any Member of your Lordships' House, whatever he may think of Her Majesty's Government, was prepared to take the word of the Government of Hanoi against the word of Her Majesty's Government.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, with respect, I think that the noble Earl has misunderstood my question. I was not for one moment doubting the word of the noble Earl. What I said was that as soon as Mr. Davies got to Hanoi, the North Vietnam authorities stated that in no circumstances was his visit connected with the Commonwealth Peace Mission. They had not changed their mind about receiving the mission. Did the Government know about that before Mr. Davies went and would it not have been wiser to find out what the attitude of the North Vietnam authorities was before sending Mr. Davies?

THE EARL OF LONGFORD

My Lords, of course, that is an arguable matter. One can perhaps argue that any peace mission is something of a hazard. But I think that there are a great many people in this country, not confined to any one Party, who think that a great deal must be risked in order to achieve peace at the present time.

LORD BLYTON

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the people of Britain are prepared to accept any avenue if it will bring this calamitous war to an end?

THE EARL OF LONGFORD

My Lords, I am sure that what my noble friend has said is the view of a great many people, perhaps the majority of people, in this country.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, if I may intervene for one moment, am I to understand that no invitation was ever sent by the North Vietnam Government, and all that the Government had was a message from two journalists in London; that even now the Vietnam Government have said nothing to show that the visit would be welcome; and, thirdly, that they will not allow Mr. Davies to have any expert adviser? It is perfectly true that there happens to be a Consul there, but not a direct representative of the Foreign Office in London. Am I to understand that that is the basis on which this mission is embarking? I never heard anything quite like it before.

THE EARL OF LONGFORD

My Lords, I must leave the noble Marquess to discuss the last matter with others. I cannot form an opinion as to whether this is without any precedent, but I should like to make it plain that Her Majesty's Government were informed by these journalists that Mr. Davies would be welcome. In fact, a visa was forthcoming and therefore, to that extent, his visit has been facilitated. That the response was disappointing when he got there I am quite ready to believe. The North Vietnamese Government are extremely difficult to deal with. But I believe in the view, as do Her Majesty's Government and a great many people, perhaps the majority in this country, that we must keep on trying to deal with these people even if they are difficult.

LORD HENDERSON

My Lords, is it not the case that the results of this visit should be judged when the Minister returns and not while he is still there?

THE EARL OF LONGFORD

My Lords, I think that is an extremely valuable reflection.

LORD ALPORT

My Lords, may I ask how long Mr. Davies is to remain there and when it is expected he will return? When he does return, will a report be made to Parliament?

THE EARL OF LONGFORD

My Lords, Mr. Davies has been instructed to return as soon as possible, so I assume it will not be long before he is back. No doubt the Prime Minister will report to another place and I or some other Minister will be reporting to your Lordships' House.

BARONESS HORSBRUGH

My Lords, could the noble Earl say whether the two journalists gave the invitation to Mr. Davies for himself personally, or asked the British Government if they would send him as a representative?

THE EARL OF LONGFORD

My Lords, I do not know the exact form in which the message was conveyed, but may I repeat what I said in the Statement, that soundings in London confirmed that a visa would be available not only for Mr. Davies but also for Mr. Donald Murray. To that extent, therefore, the information which was conveyed from these various sources to the Government has proved misleading.

BARONESS HORSBRUGH

My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl one further question? Can he say whether Mr. Davies went as a Government representative, and therefore has his expenses paid by the Foreign Office, or as an individual paying his own? The reason why I refer to expenses is that I should like to find out, as we have not yet been able to do, whether he went as an individual or representing Her Majesty's Government.

THE EARL OF LONGFORD

My Lords, Mr. Davies of course went as a Minister, and the noble Baroness can easily work out what that will mean in terms of expenses.

LORD ALPORT

My Lords, if he went as a Minister, may I ask whether it would not have been more appropriate if a Minister in the Foreign Office had undertaken this mission?

THE EARL OF LONGFORD

My Lords, that raises such an obvious point that I am surprised the noble Lord would think it worth ventilating. The answer is perfectly clear. Here was a Minister who we were told would be welcome in Hanoi. It is extremely difficult, putting it bluntly, to get anybody into Hanoi to find out the position and to put the case for the Commonwealth Mission.

LORD ALPORT

My Lords, following that question may I ask whether it is policy to allow a British representative to be chosen by foreign countries? Is it not normal for us to choose a representative ourselves to undertake one of the most difficult and delicate missions possible?

THE EARL OF LONGFORD

My Lords, I notice that the noble Lord is copying a friend of his in putting that point, and it is obvious that the noble Lord does not understand that Mr. Davies was not going to negotiate but to put the case for the reception of a Commonwealth Mission. If I may give the noble Lord my own opinion, for what it is worth, I think it was a job thoroughly worth while undertaking.

LORD BROWN

My Lords, is my noble friend the Leader of the House aware that, in spite of the many detailed and often apparently irrelevant questions that have been asked and the sniping that has taken place this afternoon in your Lordships' House, as in another place, many people in this country think that the policy which is being followed by Her Majesty's Government, and by the Prime Minister in particular, has required a great deal of courage—especially as it was known that sniping would take place—and that we are grateful for the seizing of any instance that may hold out some hope of improving the situation in Vietnam?

THE EARL OF LONGFORD

My Lords, I think that my noble friend has put it remarkably well.

LORD CITRINE

My Lords, would my noble friend the Leader of the House not agree that many people will be puzzled to know whether members of the Opposition wish Mr. Davies to succeed? And is it not likely that questions such as have been raised by the Opposition this afternoon will weaken any prospect of his success?

THE EARL OF LONGFORD

My Lords, while I sympathise with what is in the mind of my noble friend, frankly I think that when we embark on an adventurous course we must be prepared for a few question marks to be raised.