HL Deb 20 January 1965 vol 262 cc938-42

4.0 p.m.

THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE FOR THE ROYAL AIR FORCE (LORD SHACKLETON)

My Lords, with your Lordships' permission I should like to intervene to repeat a Statement which has been made by my right honourable friend, the Minister of Aviation, in another place on the future of the Concord project. The Statement is as follows:—

"We have now completed the review of the Concord project which we set in hand in October and we have exchanged views with the French Government. We had, and we still retain, some doubts about the financial and economic aspects of the project. We have, however, been much impressed by the confidence of our French partners, and my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has informed the French Prime Minister that we stand by the Treaty obligations into which the last Government decided to enter. During the coming months we shall be discussing with our partners the detailed programme of development and production.

"Now that the uncertainty over the future of this project has been removed, I am sure that all those concerned with it on both sides of the Channel will press forward with a real sense of purpose. In this they will have the full backing of Her Majesty's Government."

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, for repeating the Statement made in another place here this afternoon, and I think, regardless of whether or not anybody thinks the Concord is a project which is economically desirable or one which can economically stand on its own feet, we are all glad that Her Majesty's Government have decided to stand by their Treaty obligations. May I ask the noble Lord what exactly is meant by During the coming months we shall be discussing with our partners the detailed programme of development and production."? In the last month or two we have had a good deal of information by inspired leak. I do not know whether this is an inspired leak or not, but certainly we read in the papers recently that what is going to happen with the Concord is that we are going ahead to build a few prototypes and then possibly the whole thing will be dropped, depending on whether or not the prototypes are successful. Do the words in the Statement imply that, or do they mean that we are going ahead full blast with the Concord?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that we do not intend, if we can help it, to get the worst of both worlds—that is, to spend the money and lose the market. The cost of this project has gone up enormously. Originally it was going to cost this country about £75 million, purely on the "R. and D." side. Now it is up to £140 million, and I think it may be as well to look at the progress and perhaps judge it in relation to the performance of the prototypes when they fly. To that extent discussions will take place in relation to this matter. The important thing is that the partnership is going on, and we hope very much that it will succeed and will lead to aircraft coming into service in the airlines in the early 1970s.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, may I ask one more question, further to what the noble Lord said? He implies that there could be a break in the contract if the prototypes do not come up to the expectations which we all hold. Is this agreed to by the French Government?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, this is precisely the sort of discussion that will take place. I think it is so hypothetical at the moment that I hope noble Lords will not read more into what I have said. It will clearly be desirable to see how the project goes on. Our French partners have very great confidence. We had some more doubts, perhaps, but, in the light of their confidence, we are prepared enthusiastically to go ahead.

LORD REA

My Lords, I also should like to thank the Minister for his Statement and say that I hope he realises that it will give a lot of satisfaction throughout the country that Her Majesty's Government are supporting some co-ordination with the Continent of Europe. For my own part, I am particularly glad it should be France, with whom we must get into contact sooner or later, and I hope that the Government may modify their views on such matters as the Common Market. But there is one implication in this Statement, as I see it, which rather disturbs me, when the Minister says that the Government "stand by the Treaty obligations" because, I understand, they have been impressed by the confidence of their French partners. Surely there are better reasons for standing by one's obligations than this.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lord had the text of what I said, but if by any chance he had, I can only say that he has presented it in a thoroughly misleading way.

THE EARL OF GOSFORD

My Lords, may I also say how grateful I am to hear that we are going ahead with this imaginative project, but may I also ask the Minister to point out that there is no lack of confidence on the part of British industry? The Government talk about confidence on the French part. There is no lack of confidence whatsoever on the part of British industry. Any lack of confidence is on the part of the Government themselves. I should be glad if the Minister would point that out.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, we shall, of course, have an opportunity to debate this subject, and I should like to take this opportunity of expressing my appreciation to the noble Earl, Lord Gosford, for postponing his debate from an earlier time. I think ample reasons have been given why there should be concern about this project. I do not propose to go through them all now. The noble Earl will know that these were certainly not confined to the Government, or the Opposition as it then was. Noble Lords will remember that the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, and the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, expressed doubts. The cost has gone up enormously, and our concern is that what should emerge is an aircraft that will be an economic proposition. That is our hope. But reasons have been given why it was right to review the project.

LORD MERRIVALE

My Lords, I am quite sure that the Minister's Statement will give great pleasure to those who are keen on the maintenance of good Anglo-French relations, but I should like to take this opportunity to ask him two questions. Will the noble Lord assure the House that there will be no loss of advantage in time over our American competitors? Can he confirm that? Secondly, as on July 8 last the then Minister of Aviation said that it was expected that the first Concord prototype would fly in 1967, can the noble Lord say now whether that timetable will be affected or whether it will be adhered to? Or is it too early for him to be able to say?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I am not quite sure what the noble Lord meant by the first part of his question. I can assure him that so far there has been no loss of time at all. The project has gone ahead while the discussions were going on. I think that answers that point. There is every intention that it should go ahead. As to the date of the first prototype, it still remains as it was, 1966-67. I should perhaps like to use the sort of phrase that was sometimes used about aircraft projects by the Opposition when they were the Government, when they talked about the "middle 'sixties". I think this will be the late-early-middle 'sixties.

LORD MERRIVALE

My Lords, with regard to my first question, what I meant was, will the Government bear in mind very closely that at the moment we have a lead over the Americans with regard to supersonic civil aircraft, and will they maintain that lead for this country and France?

LORD SHACKLETON

I personally cannot guarantee anything as definite as that, but this is really the intention of the exercise.