§ 3.15 p.m.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the gross inadequacy of the heating arrangements on many trains, both local and long-distance, and whether they will make regulations similar to those in force in factories and offices requiring a reasonable temperature to be maintained on all passenger trains.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD LINDGREN)My Lords, heating of trains is the responsibility of the Railways Board. Passengers who have cause to complain and are unable to get satisfaction from the Board can put their case to the transport users' consultative committees. My right honourable friend has no power to make regulations of the kind suggested.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, I thank the Minister for his not very warming Answer. If the Government have no power to make regulations, will they consider introducing legislation which will give them that power?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, the Ministry of Transport have considerable difficulty in enforcing even the existing regulations for which they are responsible. 921 This is obviously a matter for the Railways Board. It is a technical matter, and is much better dealt with by those who operate the service.
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, may I support the noble Baroness in her reasonable plea and, with the greatest respect, say to the noble Lord, Lord Lindgren, that it is not a matter for the Railways Board but a matter which concerns the travelling public, which I think is the point which the noble Baroness has in mind? Will the noble Lord consider the possibility of making the necessary amendments to the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act? From my recollection of that Act, having been partly in charge of it, with my noble friend Lord Carrington, during its passage through your Lordships' House, I do not think it would require very much amendment. It is Section 1, which deals with the scope of the Act, which would have to be amended. At the same time, will the noble Lord consider amending the Act so that it requires the provision of efficient sanitary conveniences and adequate supplies of warm and cold water to be extended to railway trains, particularly those of the Southern Region?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, the latter part of the noble Lord's supplementary question is, I think, a little wide of the original Question. The Minister of Labour—and I hope this observation will be taken in the right spirit—has a welfare responsibility for workers in factories, workshops, shops, offices and the rest, but that is slightly different, I would suggest, from the responsibility of the Minister of Transport for the comfort of passengers travelling by train.
§ BARONESS HORSBRUGHMy Lords, as the noble Lord says that the Minister of Labour has a responsibility for factory workers, may I ask him, have the Government no responsibility at all for the public?
§ LORD LINDGRENYes, my Lords; but this is a technical matter of the operation of a transport service. It is the responsibility of those who have to operate the service. I would admit quite readily that, arising from the introduction of diesel trains, there have been some complications, particularly with the steam-generating boilers. But these are technical problems, with 922 which the Railways Board is grappling. For the information of my noble friend and other noble Lords who may be interested, there is an article in the Railway Gazette of January 15 dealing with the heating and ventilation of trains. If noble Lords would read that article I think they would see that the Railways Board are appreciative of the problem and are tackling it.
§ LORD BRAYEMy Lords, if it is a technical matter, would the noble Lord say why the heating system for compartments of trains is sometimes not connected up? That, surely, though a technical matter, is quite simple.
§ LORD LINDGRENThere are two main reasons for this problem. Railway carriages, in particular, have to be stabled in the open; and if a carriage has been standing out all night in several degrees of frost it naturally tends to get cold and takes a little while to warm up. It is equally true that the couplings of the steam pipes tend to freeze, and that they take quite a while to unfreeze.
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, could the noble Lord tell me whether these things have happened only in the last five months and not in the previous thirteen years?
§ LORD LINDGRENThey have been a problem for a very considerable period. I can understand the noble Lady's Question, however, because it is true that over the last year or two, with the introduction of diesel engines, the problem has been aggravated. With these engines it takes an even longer period of time for a train that has been stabled in sidings to get warm than was the case with steam engines.
§ LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDALMy Lords, can the Minister explain why in Switzerland, where the weather is much colder than in this country, these troubles seem to be overcome? There is great comfort in travelling in Switzerland. If that is the case, why on earth can there not be the same comfort and convenience in this country?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, there is comfort in the trains in this country. The tendency is that one remembers the discomfort when one is cold and forgets 923 when one has been warm and comfortable. The same sort of thing happens in Switzerland. I have suffered in Switzerland from a cold train in exactly the same way as in this country.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, is the noble Lord seriously arguing that, in an age when it is possible to make preparations to travel to the moon, technical difficulties of preventing this real hardship on the travelling public are insuperable?
§ LORD LINDGRENNo, my Lords. But I would again recommend the noble Lady to read the article in the Railway Gazette for January 15. Although it is slightly technical I believe it would enable her to appreciate the problem belter, and the manner in which it is being dealt with.
§ LORD NEWTONThe noble Lord keeps saying that this is a technical matter. I do not know precisely what he means by that, although I would agree that it is technical to the extent that at the moment most trains have apparatus for heating them and accommodation for washing and similar facilities. But they are inefficient. Would the noble Lord not agree that one of the reasons for the introduction of the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act was that premises in the past often had washing and heating facilities but they were inefficient? To that extent that also was a technical problem, and it was overcome by the Act. What I am asking is that the Act should be extended in the same way to cover trains.
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, if the noble Lord will examine the position as it is generally, and not the exceptional case, he will find that washing, toilet and heating facilities in general are of a reasonable standard on British Railways.
§ Several Noble Lords: No! no!
§ LORD ROBERTSON OF OAKRIDGEMy Lords, would the Minister agree that technically, at least, heating a stationary office and factory is an entirely different thing from heating a moving train; that heating a train on a system which is entirely electrified, such as the Swiss system, is entirely different from heating a train not electrified and run by diesel; 924 and, in any case, does he think that anything is to be gained by passing a law against technical breakdowns?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, the answer to the first parts of the question is, Yes; and I am most grateful for the intervention. I would suggest that if this is a subject of great interest to your Lordships perhaps it would be useful to put down an Unstarred Question on it.