INQUIRY INTO CO-ORDINATION OF TRANSPORT (Hansard, 16 February 1965)

§ LORD CHESHAM
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD LINDGREN)
My Lords, Lord Hinton of Bankside has come into the Government service temporarily, and will report to my right honourable friend as he proceeds with the study. The noble Lord seems to have quoted my right honourable friend out of context. It is intended that the inquiry should be completely objective.

§ LORD CHESHAM
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I was present on this occasion when unfortunately he was not? Is he aware that I am full of admiration for the noble Lord, Lord Hinton of Bankside, and am not trying to cast the slightest aspersion upon his appointment? Is he aware, thirdly, that I have not quoted his right honourable friend out of context at all? Is he further aware that, on the public occasion I have mentioned, namely, on Monday, February 1, his right honourable friend said in my hearing, in the hearing of 397 the majority, I imagine, of the 800 or so people present, and, in particular, in that of the representatives of the Press Association, who quoted him verbatim in their report—and said very much bang in this context—that an independent study is absolutely essential? Is the noble Lord further aware that, according to the OFFICIAL REPORT of another place for Monday, February 8, col. 36, line 12, his right honourable friend said: Lord Hinton is coming into my Ministry. He will not make an independent investigation and a report. Could the noble Lord please explain this contradiction over the period of a week?

§ LORD LINDGREN
My Lords, I think the noble Lord is being a little "slick", if I might say so in good Commons terms.

§ LORD LINDGREN
At least that is my way of putting it. The full quotation of what my right honourable friend said in another place was: Lord Hinton is coming into my Ministry. He will not make an independent investigation and a report. He is coming in as a special adviser. When a report is made it will be made by me to Parliament … On that occasion, then, I think the statement that the noble Lord attributes to my right honourable friend is out of context. So is the part of the speech which my right honourable friend made to the Traders' Road Transport Association on February 1 which the noble Lord quoted. If he desires, I will read that in full; but to take a sentence out of a speech, or out of an answer to a Question, is, I think, slightly unfair. The noble Lord has considerable experience in answering questions from this Box. May I assure him that answering questions across the Floor in another place is a much more trying ordeal, and one is more likely to make a slip there than in this House.

EARL FERRERS
Is the noble Lord suggesting that his right honourable friend made a slip?

§ LORD LINDGREN
No, my Lords. I am suggesting that in fact the phrase which the noble Lord quoted was out of the context of the rest of the sentence and the rest of the paragraph of my right honourable friend's reply.

§ LORD CHESHAM
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware—I think he is—that I 398 am familiar with the difficulties with which he is faced on this occasion from that Dispatch Box? Is he aware that, within the clear context of a reference to an inquiry into the co-ordination of transport the assertion on Monday, February 1, that an independent investigation was essential was flatly contradicted by the words: He will not make an independent investigation… used on the 8th?

§ LORD LINDGREN
My Lords, the noble Lord has worked closely with the Civil Service, and he is entitled to be grateful for their service to him when he was a Minister. The position of a civil servant and his advice to a Minister is much different from that of a complete outsider making a report to the Minister and to Parliament.

§ LORD CHESHAM
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I did not ask this question of any of the admirable civil servants in the Ministry? Does he realise that I was referring to a ministerial statement? Would he convey to his right honourable friend, and indeed to all his right honourable friends, that if we are to have contradictory ministerial statements of this kind, the impression of confusion and indecision left by the dynamic 100 days, to begin with, will never be dispelled?

§ LORD LINDGREN
My Lords, there is no contradiction. If the noble Lord opposite will study the full statement and the full Answers to the Questions which my right honourable friend made, he will, I think, appreciate the full significance of the statement. My right honourable friend reads the Report of proceedings of this House and he will therefore read what the noble Lord says.

§ LORD NEWTON
My Lords, is not the noble Lord really saying that this much-heralded inquiry is nothing else but an ordinary departmental inquiry? If that is so, are not all departmental inquiries objective? If they are not, why is the noble Lord trying to emphasise the objectivity?

§ LORD LINDGREN
My Lords, I should hope, in fact I am certain, that all departmental inquiries are objective. They try to ascertain the facts and to give, on the basis of the facts, the 399 opportunities for action. It is a political decision for Ministers to take action arising from the facts objectively put before them by the Civil Service or by their advisers in other capacities. The noble Lord, Lord Hinton, is free to make his inquiry in the way he thinks fit; and I am certain he will do it. Any noble Lord who knows the noble Lord, Lord Hinton, will not think he comes into the Civil Service to make an inquiry on the basis of an office boy.

§ LORD NEWTON
I accept that; but is it not the case that any civil servant in charge of an inquiry is entitled to make his inquiry in the way he thinks best?

§ LORD LINDGREN
Yes, my Lords; and the Minister, as a politician, makes his decision and is responsible to Parlialiament for it.

§ LORD CHESHAM
My Lords, would the noble Lord be glad to know that I welcome his statement that his right honourable friend follows the proceedings, in this House?—because if this kind of thing goes on, his right honourable friend will find plenty to read.