§ 4.38 p.m.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like now to make a statement on Firearms Legislation which my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has made in another place to-day. I will use his own words:
"I announced on January 21 that I was examining the adequacy of the present legislation affecting firearms, in 298 consultation with chief officers of police. Our object has been to strike at the criminal, the potential criminal and the hooligan, while limiting as much as possible the restrictions placed on the law-abiding citizen and the burden placed on the police. The conclusions that the Government have reached are as follows:
"First, we shall propose to Parliament that the maximum penalties under the Firearms Act, 1937, for the possession of a firearm without a necessary firearm certificate or during a period of disqualification shall be increased from the present maxima of three months' imprisonment, and fines of £20 or £50, to maxima of six months and a £200 fine upon summary conviction, and three years' imprisonment and an unlimited fine upon conviction on indictment. I am also reviewing the penalties under certain related provisions, such as making a false statement to obtain a firearm certificate.
"Second, the Government have considered carefully the possibility of extending to shot-guns the firearms certificate procedure but have decided against it. There are probably at least half-a-million shot-guns in legitimate use throughout the country, and the burden which certification would put on the police and the users would not be justified by the benefits that would result. Instead we shall propose to Parliament that it should be made an offence, with maximum penalties of six months and £200 on summary conviction and five years and an unlimited fine upon conviction on indictment, to have any loaded firearm, other than an air weapon, in a public place without lawful authority or reasonable excuse. I believe that this should deter criminals and hooligans from carrying loaded guns—which is the real danger.
"Thirdly, in order to deal with criminals and potential criminals who carry concealed weapons, especially when travelling in cars, the Government propose to ask for a new power for the police to stop, search and detain persons in public places on reasonable suspicion that they are in unlawful possession of a firearm. The use by the police of this power would 299 be closely supervised, and we are satisfied that it is required to prevent a rise in armed hooliganism and the use of firearms by criminals.
"Fourthly, as the weapons used are in the main stolen or illegally imported, I am re-examining the provisions of the 1937 Act relating to the registration of firearms dealers with a view to widening their scope and to increasing the control exercised over matters such as security of premises. "Fifthly, I have it in mind, in the period immediately before new penalties come into effect, to arrange a further amnesty so as to encourage those who have firearms for which they have no real use to surrender them to the police.
"I am confident that these measures would help the police in their fight against violent crime and I am arranging for the necessary legislation to be drafted."
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, we are grateful to the noble Lord for repeating that Statement. We are probably all agreed that some steps of the kind outlined in the Statement are now becoming necessary. There are certain questions of considerable importance and perhaps some difficulty involved in the Statement, and I have the feeling that we should probably do better, before making any comment on it, to wait and see the proposed legislation, because these points are not really suitable for discussion now.
LORD REAMy Lords, I should like to endorse what the noble Lord has just said. I think the whole House will welcome the Statement and the decision. It is sad that we have to come to give further powers to the police, but it is necessary, and of course we can trust our excellent police to use these powers most judiciously. One small point comes to mind to be taken into account when we come to it: air weapons are not included, but, as the noble Lord knows, they can be lethal. Perhaps that could be explained a little more in due course.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I am most grateful for the welcome given to the Statement in general by the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, and of course we shall have an opportunity to discuss details later on. I am particularly obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Rea, for his 300 remarks and grateful, too, for what he said about the discretion of the police. I think it would not be inappropriate at this stage if I sought your Lordships' agreement to a tribute to the courage the police have displayed, particularly in recent months—courage which is really beyond all praise. It is gratifying also to know that in the fifteen incidents involving shooting in North and North-East London last December, the police made arrests in every single case. It is obvious that there is general agreement in this House, and I believe throughout the country, to the fact that the time has come, however reluctant we may be, when there is need for stiffer penalties, and I believe the proposals my right honourable friend has put forward will meet a very pressing need.
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, as I asked the noble Lord the other day what I thought to be a rather pertinent question about this matter, I wonder whether he will allow me to say that while, of course, we have not had time to go fully into the implication of what he has just announced, it does seem to me, at face value, that, in principle, all legitimate interests in firearms will welcome what he has announced.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Chesham. He will be aware that all legitimate interests have been fully consulted, and I think the proposals we have now decided to put forward will meet the need and will be supported throughout the country.
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, may I join the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, in concurring that we should suspend detailed investigation until we see the legislation? But I hope the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, will forgive my expressing approval of what he has said, in view of the fact that he appears in his Statement to have embodied nearly all the suggestions I have put to the Government on the last 22 occasions I have raised this matter in your Lordships' House. I presume the question of arming the police has been once again gone into very thoroughly, and the fact that the noble Lord has made no further statement about it to-day means that the situation is as it was and that no change of policy is anticipated in this regard.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, particularly, of course, because of his considerable experience in the office I now hold. It is the case that further consultations have taken place with the police with regard to arming the police, and it has been agreed, and is still agreed, that there should be no change in the position that has endured for so long.
§ LORD CHORLEYMy Lords, may I invite the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, to come over on to this side?