HL Deb 03 February 1965 vol 262 cc1236-40

7.5 p.m.

LORD BRAYE rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether it can now be stated what progress has been made with electronic blind-landing equipment for civilian transport aircraft; and whether any other type of blind-landing device is under consideration which would help to reduce the numerous delays to passengers and air mail at Airports in the United Kingdom during foggy weather. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I feel that I should apologise for again raising in your Lordships' House the matter of blind-landing equipment for civilian aircraft. But, as your Lordships are aware, there are at times considerable delays to passengers and air mail. If you book a flight anywhere, you are now quite likely to be rung up by the airline and told that they are sorry but the flight has been cancelled. Or, worse, if there is fog you are taken down to the airport, where you sit and wait and look at the fog-bound aircraft, only to be; told eventually over a loudspeaker that the plane will not, after all, be able to take off.

I know that a great many experiments have been carried out on devices for blind landing, or landing in fog. There are two main questions that I should like to ask Her Majesty's Government to-day. One concerns the progress being made with electronic landing gear, or automatic landing apparatus, in which experiments are, I believe, being carried out. Secondly, if they have not yet perfected this system (and I think that this might take a very long time; obviously, it must be at least 97 per cent. fool-proof before putting it on a passenger-carrying aircraft—it is impossible to have anything in the air which is completely foolproof. I would ask whether any other form of device to enable aircraft to land safely on a runway in fog is still being worked on by the Ministry of Aviation.

The last time I moved for Papers on this question, there was a lot of talk about putting up a type of Fido running on oil—though not the type of Fido we had in the war. The reply the Government gave me then was that experiments were still being carried out in that direction. I know that this; is a difficult subject, but from the pilot's point of view—and many captains of aircraft confirm this—it seems to me that he would far sooner be able to see the runway when coming in with 60 passengers aboard than to have to depend on electronic apparatus. It is quite true that the pilot may get used to this apparatus; but it may take a very long time, and meanwhile delays continue. I should like to know from Her Majesty's Government how we are getting on and in what fields the experiments are proceeding—that is, provided that the Government can divulge them.

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, this is the first occasion on which I have intervened in your Lordships' House, and I am sure that on this non-controversial, or at any rate politically non-controversial, subject I can expect your Lordships' customary indulgence. I am supported in this by the recollection that when I last spoke for the Government in another place on civil aviation, I received very real moral support from my noble friend Lord Longford, when he was two corri- dors and a Central Lobby away. Now he is only two feet away, I am sure I shall have even greater support.

May I also say, having turned up some of the Questions on the subject, how much I admire the tenacity of the noble Lord, Lord Braye, in his pursuit of this subject. I hope he will maintain both his interest and his pressure. I agree with him that if we could get absolute reliability, and ensure that all delays due to bad weather were eliminated, that would be a tremendous step forward for civil air transport. But I am sure that the noble Lord will agree with me that in our quest for reliability in air services we must never even appear to be overlooking the factor of safety. In part, the time which has been taken in the experiments in these matters is rendered necessary by the very high safety margins which the licensing authorities require.

So far as the present position is concerned, research is being carried out into this problem of all-weather landing at both the Ministry of Aviation's establishments at Farnborough and Bedford, and a number of techniques are being considered which may be used for future generations of aircraft. These techniques include the long-term improvement of the I.L.S., instrument landing system, the improvement of head-up displays, which, as the noble Lord will know, is a system of presenting information to the pilot on the windscreen before him, and also the use of inertial guidance. The possibilities of other landing techniques are kept under review. So far as Fido is concerned, the position under this Government remains the same as that which was expressed in this House to the noble Lord on February 6, 1963, namely, that No 1nstallation of Fido was being considered, either for Heathrow or for any other airport in this country.

Work on the system that the noble Lord mentioned, an electronic automatic landing system, is being carried on as regards both ground and air-borne elements. The experiments are proceeding satisfactorily. Indeed, I, myself, gave them some consumer tests last Monday, and I can endorse the claim that they are proceeding satisfactorily. It is hoped that this automatic landing system will be in operation by the end of the 1960s. Meanwhile, partly in order to familiarise pilots and operators, and also in order to establish the complete confidence of the pilots, which is essential in this matter, as I am sure the noble Lord will agree, it is planned that the system will be available for use by 1967 on commercial passenger flights at suitably equipped airports in conditions of good visibility and down to present weather limits of operation. It is anticipated that the Trident will be the first civil aircraft in the world to operate on scheduled services with an automatic landing system.

I should add that when these systems are installed, and proven, that will not be the end of the problems. There are still other problems on the ground. There is no point in putting aircraft down to the ground in conditions of fog unless the passengers can be moved. So it will be necessary to have taxi-way guidance, and to ensure that there is complete support of safety services. For example, there was a crash at London Airport when a Viscount came down in fog, and the five engine had difficulty in finding the crash. That kind of thing presents problems which are being considered. I assure the noble Lord that there is no delay in the attention which the present Government are giving to these problems.

LORD BRAYE

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his very kind reply.

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, while I do not wish to say anything of substance, I should not like this short debate to terminate without congratulations from these Benches to the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, on a winning first appearance in your Lordships' House. I think that we have gained an admirable recruit. We have also gained someone who knows a great deal about this subject, as his reply this evening has made very clear to your Lordships. I would most sincerely congratulate him on his maiden speech in this House.

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl very much.