§ 2.44 p.m.
§ LORD AMPTHILLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I must in accordance with my usual practice, declare my interest as a tobacco manufacturer.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government when they propose to introduce an amendment to the Commonwealth Preference Orders 1954 and 1957 to ensure that Commonwealth Preference applies to all Rhodesian Tobaccos from the 1965 crop purchased and paid for, but not completely packed and shipped before the U.D.I. on November 11.]
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, before answering the noble Lord's Question which is on Rhodesia, I should like, if I may, to refer to two points which I made last night in a long speech—a long speech not of my choice—in which I may have given two wrong impressions. I said in the course of my speech that Southern Rhodesia was outside the Commonwealth. Strictly, of course, under an illegal régime Southern Rhodesia would be outside the Commonwealth, but in view of the enabling Act which your Lordships recently passed we have made it clear that Southern Rhodesia is within the Commonwealth.
The second point is that I said that the Parliament of Southern Rhodesia had not been dismissed. It is true that it has not been dismissed, but under the Southern Rhodesia Constitution Order its powers to act have been withdrawn. So, in fact, it exists, but it has no powers. I thought it right to correct those two points in view of any possible misunderstandings.
In regard to the Question which the noble Lord has asked, I would reply as follows. The Southern Rhodesia (Withdrawal of Commonwealth Preference) Order 1965 provided that the termination of Preference should apply to all Rhodesian goods which were not entered with the Customs before November 19; but after consideration of representations, the Southern Rhodesia (Withdrawal of Commonwealth Preference) (No. 2) Order 1965 was made which extended entitle- 1044 ment to any Rhodesian goods which were shipped from the ports of Beira and LourenÇo Marques before November 19. It is not practicable to go further than this. The termination of entitlement to preference is a legislative act applying to all imports from this territory, and it must be on a basis which is both precisely definable and fully verifiable.
§ LORD AMPTHILLMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer, which I am afraid I do not find entirely satisfactory. Can he explain to me why there is any difficulty about identifying tobacco from the 1965 crop shipped from Beira to England after November 19? Perhaps the noble Lord will remember that I covered this point fully when I addressed the House on the subject several weeks ago.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Lord is obviously, because of his connections, thinking in terms of tobacco. If he will look at the reply that I have given, he will see that the two Orders refer to all goods from Rhodesia. It would be quite wrong to withdraw a preference on goods from Rhodesia to take into account tobacco, on the one hand, and manufactured or raw materials and food and the like, on the other. There must be one Order, and it would be utterly wrong to give preference to one particular product and not to another. Therefore, the noble Lord will see that while it might be practicable—and I emphasise the word "might"—to deal with tobacco, since it passes through relatively few hands, it would be quite a different matter to deal with all the other commodities and articles despatched from Rhodesia. The noble Lord will understand and appreciate that we considered the representations made by his trade in regard to goods despatched from Rhodesia or from the ports, and in the end we took the view that these Orders should operate on goods shipped from the ports.
§ LORD AMPTHILLMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I have checked through my company with the Customs and Excise authorities with whom we deal, and they have stated quite categorically that there is no difficulty whatsoever in identifying the packages of tobacco from the 1965 crop?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Lord is still not recognising that, in all justice—and this is what we want —these Orders must apply to all goods. Preference cannot be given to one particular trade, which is what the noble Lord is asking, and I am quite sure the House will agree that and particular trade should not be treated any differently from another.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, what proportion of the goods shipped from Beira is tobacco, and what proportion is anything else?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I am afraid that I cannot answer that question without notice. But undoubtedly tobacco is the major part.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, but is this not really the point? Am I not right in thinking that this Order unamended, as it now stands, will put a bill for something like an extra £1½ million on the cost of the tobacco, and have an effect on our balance of payments? Surely this is not very sensible. The only people it hurts are ourselves. It does not hurt Mr. Smith. Would there not be something to be said for making a distinction in the case of tobacco?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Lord's assumption would be right, and there would be this extra sum on the cost of tobacco, if tobacco were used immediately. But the general practice—I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Ampthill, would confirm this—is that tobacco comes into bond in this country, and it does not have to bear any added ditties that arise until it is taken out of bond. My information is that tobacco normally remains in bond for two years. It may well be—and I am quite sure that on all sides of the House we hope this will be so—that, by the end of that time Southern Rhodesia will have returned to constitutional government, in which case the Preferences which they previously enjoyed would be restored to them. In that case, the matter would be looked at again in order to see whether this particular crop which the noble Lord, Lord Ampthill, has in mind should or should not enjoy the Preference.
§ LORD AMPTHILLMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the actual prac- 1046 tical working of this business in the tobacco industry is that the 1965 crop, with its added £l½ million will be brought into what is called leaf average, and will therefore have an immediate effect on the cost of the blends? Further, can I ask the noble Lord what purpose is served by this boomerang sanction by way of bringing Mr. Smith and his colleagues back into the paths of legality? Why should the tobacco manufacturers and importers of this country contribute over £1 million to this useless boomerang sanction?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Lord, if he wishes, will have an opportunity to add his voice to the debate that we shall have again this evening on this general matter of sanctions.
§ LORD SHEPHERDIn the past this House has gone a good deal wider than the Motion on the Order Paper, and will no doubt do so again. But I think it is true, as I said yesterday, that economic sanctions are a blunt instrument, and such an instrument is infinitely better than the sharp sword, but with a blunt instrument many people are hurt. But when you impose this particular sanction, which involves a form of taxation or the raising of revenue, you must have, as I said in my original reply, a date which is definable and fully verifiable. You cannot make adjustments between one trade and another. You must make a stand. Some gain, some lose. In the circumstances, think there is nothing further that we can usefully say on this matter.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, would it not be simplest, healthiest and most effective from the point of view of sanctions and the balance of payments if we all gave up smoking?
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that many of us are getting tired of hearing noble Lords comforting the Queen's enemies?
§ LORD AMPTHILLMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, cannot be aware that I have risen from a bed of sickness to be here to ask this Question to-day, so I shall not be able to remain 1047 for the rest of the debate. In any case, I am sure the noble Lord would not want me to mix tobacco with oil.