§ 4.5 p.m.
§ THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE FOR THE ROYAL AIR FORCE (LORD SHACKLETON)My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to intervene to repeat a Statement which is being made by my right honourable friend the Minister of Aviation in another place on the Plowden Report. The Statement is as follows:—
§ "The Report of the Committee of Inquiry into the Aircraft Industry, under the chairmanship of Lord Plowden, has now been received and printed. Copies will be available in the Vote Office at 4.30 p.m. to-day.
§ "This is a most valuable Report, and the Government are indebted to Lord Plowden and the other members of the Committee for their sustained work and penetrating analysis.
§ "The Report proposes a set of guidelines for future policy, with a number of detailed recommendations for future action. Among the subjects dealt with in detail are the organisation and future ownership of the industry. As a preliminary to coming to conclusions on these subjects, I shall be holding exploratory discussions with the industry shortly.
§ "The House will, I am sure, appreciate that the Committee's Report requires the most careful study both by the Government and by the industry. We are also anxious that there should be a full opportunity for consideration 845 by the House. I therefore hope to make a fuller statement about the Report when the House reassembles after the Christmas Recess."
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for repeating this Statement and to echo the gratitude which is expressed in it to the noble Lord, Lord Plowden, and his colleagues for the great deal of work they have done in this connection. May I say straight away that I think the Government have been wise in their decision to explore further with the industry the important issues involved, before coming to any firm or final conclusions.
May I ask just two questions of the noble Lord? In the first place, may we assume that the Government will take no definite decisions on any of the major issues involved before Parliament has had time to discuss this Report? My second question arises from the fact that this period of delay, for which I recognise the reason, will, of course, increase the uncertainty—and I think one can say the Government-created uncertainty—which hangs over the aircraft industry at the present time. With a view to mitigating that uncertainty meanwhile, can the noble Lord assure us that the Government are determined to do all within their power to make certain that the British aircraft industry—and by this I mean not only the airframe industry, but also the air engine industry, the air electronics industry and all the associated industries—will retain its ability to compete effectively with any other aircraft industry in the world?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I think I can give the noble Earl the assurance on the first point, that no decisions on major issues will be taken without Parliament having an opportunity to discuss them. But, of course, it is open to argument as to what are major issues. When the noble Earl sees the Report, I think he will see that time is bound to pass in discussion with the industry, and that there will be suitable opportunities. On his second point, I thought I was going to be able to give the noble Earl the assurance he wanted, but I am not quite sure that I understood what he meant when he referred to the industry's ability to compete, I think he said, with any other industry in the world.
§ LORD SHACKLETONOn this, I think I would make only this point. It has always been the Government's policy—and certainly continues to be—that we have an effective and viable industry. But the noble Earl knows that, in the present situation, the future of the aircraft industry—and I do not wish to pre-judge what is implied; these are views I have expressed, and I think he has also—must in many respects depend on co-operation, rather than on competition with the industries of other countries. I have particularly in mind the Anglo-French cooperation involved in the Concord, and the Anglo-French VG and Jaguar aircraft. I think the noble Earl rather implied that we ought to have been able to "go it alone." Clearly; he would not expect me to give an assurance on that.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I wonder if I might correct the noble Lord: I think he has slightly misunderstood me. I am as keen as he is that there should be full and deep co-operation between the British aircraft industry and similar industries in Europe. But the assurance which I was requesting from the noble Lord was an assurance that we shall retain in this country a firm national base for such cooperation.
§ LORD SHACKLETONI think that is rather different, and I would certainly hope that when the noble Earl sees the Plowden Report, and subsequent Government decisions on this matter, he will be satisfied that his wishes are met. But I think this is a subject at which we should look in detail, rather than purely in the round.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, while we on these Benches welcome the fact that the Plowden Report will be available in sixteen minutes, we should have been happier if we could have seen it before making comments on it, even in this brief fashion. Therefore, I do not propose to say anything on it at this moment, but will simply ask the noble Lord whether we can have a debate on the Report at an early date after the House reassembles following the Christmas Recess. I think the points raised by the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe—that is to say, the future co-operation of the British aircraft industry with European industry, and also to what 847 extent the Government should be implicated in the future of the industry—are very important. At first sight, at all events, we would not wish any incursion of the Government into the industry which would in any way make it a nationalised industry. We do not feel that that would be in the best interests, either of the country or of the aircraft manufacturers.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I think that when the noble Lord sees the Report, he will see the impossibility of dealing with it by means of Statement and question and answer. His suggestion about a debate is clearly one that is open to the Opposition to press, either through the usual channels, or through other ways that are open to them. Certainly all these major issues are dealt with in the Plowden Report.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, may I raise with the Minister one point of clarification? If I understand him aright, he said that there would be a future report on the recommendations of the Plowden Committee. As I understand it at the moment, the Report deals mainly with the organisation of the aircraft industry and not so much with its future place and size, as there has not been any Statement from the Government with regard to the Defence Review. May I take it that the Statement to which the Minister referred will be made more or less in conjunction with a Statement on the Government's Defence Review? While considering this whole question of the size of the aircraft industry, will the Government also consider very carefully what was written in the brochure recently produced by The Society of British Aerospace Companies.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I admire the ingenuity of the noble Lord in linking this to the Defence Review. I hardly ever make a Statement in this House without mentioning the Defence Review. May I remind the noble Lord, who I know is deeply interested in this subject, that it is the intention of the Government to consider the Report very carefully (it has been in the hands of the Government only a comparatively few days) and to study it and, as necessary, to have exploratory discussions with industry. Clearly, all the views of industry, many of which have been put to the 848 Plowden Committee and are available to the Government, will be taken into account. I assure the noble Lord that the object must be on all sides with good will to arrive—to use the noble Earl's phrase—at a satisfactory and effective base; indeed, a viable and effective aircraft industry.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, is the noble Lord saying that the fuller Statement to be made by the Government will be the outcome of further consultations that are to be had with the aircraft industry itself?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I do not know how much longer the noble Lord wants me to go on. I hesitate to use the words "there will be a continuing process". But once again the Government will make available to Parliament and to the country, as quickly as possible, their views on various aspects.