§ 2.36 p.m.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, and if so subject to what conditions, the use of cyclamates is permissible in food and drink.]
§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD CHAMPION)My Lords, soft drinks are the only food or drink in which cyclamates may be used at present, and except for certain special drinks, the maximum quantity which may be used is laid down. The cyclamates must comply with prescribed specifications of purity and all drinks containing them must be appropriately labelled.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer.
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, a cyclamate is a sweetener. Calcium cyclamate is the dehydrate of the calcium salt of cyclamic acid and contains not less than 98 per cent, and not more than 100.5 per cent. of C12H24O6N2S2Ca calculated with reference to the substance dried to constant weight at 105°C.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, further to that fascinating answer, could the noble Lord explain how a substance can have 100.5 per cent. of any commodity?
§ LORD CHAMPIONNot without notice.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether it is not the case that these substances have no nutritive value and are therefore a falsification to the consumer?
§ LORD CHAMPIONYes, my Lords, that is why they are labelled; they have no nutritive value at all. They are a sweetener and taste slightly more pleasant than saccharine.
LORD HAWKEMy Lords, in view of the enormous surplus of sugar which is building up all over the world and being grown by some of the poorest countries of the world, would Her Majesty's Government encourage manufacturers to use sugar as a sweetener rather than these extraordinary chemicals?
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, I am afraid that we must leave this for the manufacturer to decide.
§ LORD CHAMPIONIn fact, they are in some cases beneficial, such as in the case of people with low calorie diets.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree with me that the manufacturers who make profit out of this fluid are the last people who should be left to decide?
§ LORD CHAMPIONIt is, of course, prescribed by the regulations which I mentioned in my previous Answer.
§ 2.39 p.m.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how many synthetic dyes are now permitted in articles of food, when the list was last revised, and whether it is proposed to revise it again and, if so, in what manner.]
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, the synthetic colouring matters which may be used in food contain 30 synthetic coal tar colours and those permitted natural colourings which can be produced synthetically. The present Colouring Matter in Food Regulations were made in 1957 and were reviewed by the Food Standards Committee whose Report was published in July, 1964. In the light of the Report's recommendations and the comments received on them, Her Majesty's Government issued proposals for revised regulations on July 14. In the main, these proposals follow the recommendations of the Food Standards Committee and will, if adopted, reduce the number of colours which may be used in food.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether it was not the case that every one of these coal tar dyes is suspected of being cancer inducing, that many of them which were allowed to be used have been now discontinued, and that many used in this country are banned in other countries?
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, this matter has been very carefully considered by the appropriate committees, and the Minister of Health and the Minister of Agriculture have responsibilities under the Food and Drugs Act. The Government do not feel that there is any considerable 4 danger in the use of these substances. I must admit that, if I were speaking personally, I would ban the lot, but I am not.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL. My Lords, encouraged by my noble friend's last comment, I would ask whether he could tell me why our standards regarding the adulteration of food are so much lower than those insisted on by the Food and Drugs Administration of the United States.
§ LORD CHAMPIONI am afraid I cannot answer for the United States. So far as we are concerned, this matter is very carefully considered by an independent body of scientists, food technologists and representatives of the general public, which has been set up to advise Ministers on this whole matter of colourings.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether it is not the case that when the Food Standards Committee reported on this matter they admitted that they were permitting the use of dye-stuffs on which they had little or no information?
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, I have information on that point. But although the Committee have recommended that certain colours should be withdrawn from the permitted list, they have not suggested that this is a matter of serious or urgent importance to public health. So it has been carefully considered.
§ BARONESS HORSBRUGHMy Lords, can the noble Lord say which colours are to be withdrawn?
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, it does just happen that the colour to be withdrawn is blue. It has no political significance but a chemical and a food one.
§ BARONESS HORSBRUGHMy Lords, is that the only one? Because I thought that in his answer the noble Lord said "colours", in the plural.
§ LORD CHAMPIONMy Lords, there are about six colours altogether, but blue is one of them.
§ BARONESS HORSBRUGHAnd the others?
§ LORD CHAMPIONReds, too.