§ 3.17 p.m.
THE EARL OF ARRANMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what, in their view, was the cause of the great increase in road casualties during the Easter period in relation to the same period in 1964.]
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, it is too soon to say what were the significant factors contributing to this increase. My right honourable friend has called for a special and thorough analysis of the accident and traffic figures over the holiday period, and its findings will be made available as soon as possible. But whatever these may be it is clear, as my right honourable friend has said, that in the last resort the true remedy lies with the individual road user.
THE EARL OF ARRANMy Lords, will the Government not agree that no 716 amount of threats or exhortations is going to make the slightest difference, and that neither they nor any other Government will succeed in changing human nature? Will they not further agree that the only practical way to prevent people from killing each other in motor cars is to make it almost impossible for them to do so by dividing major roads into two parts so that they cannot run headlong into each other?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, I am glad that the noble Earl has put his supplementary question, because there is a danger of emphasising the holiday figures to the extent that one thinks this is only a Bank Holiday problem. It is a problem that is with us every hour of every day of every week, and every week of the year, and we have to deal with it. But I could not be quite so callous as the noble Earl. Every one of these accidents is a tragedy to some family somewhere, and by education, road improvement, or in some other way, we must do all we can to reduce this heavy toll.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, will the noble Lord not agree that, whatever inquiry is to be held in future, as has been the case following every inquiry held in the past, the net result will be what he has himself said in your Lordships' House this afternoon—namely, the responsibility rests upon the shoulders of the individual road user? The cause of these accidents lies with the individual. Will the noble Lord not agree with me that the only solution to this problem, difficult though it may be, is for the Government to find a method of removing from the roads those users of the roads who cannot behave themselves?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, that will be one of the things which will arise from the analysis. It may seem strange to some that where people are being killed with a lethal weapon, in giving them a licence to do so we do not require that they should be physically fit, or take steps even to see that their eyesight is satisfactory.
§ LORD BOOTHBYMy Lords, would not the noble Lord agree with the noble Earl that these three-lane roads constitute an invitation to motor cars to run into each other, and ought to be done away with as soon as possible?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, I took the same view as the noble Lord, and expressed it in a debate in this House. But when I came to office and had the figures provided for me by the police and the Road Research Laboratory I found that, while the frequency of accidents is no higher on three-lane roads than on other roads, the severity of accidents is certainly much higher on them, and that that is where death rather than sever injury often occurs.
§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARDMy Lords, might I point out to the noble Lord—
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: No.
§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARDI mean, might I ask the noble Lord that, if you take the yearly amount of fatal road casualties and divide them by the number of days in a year, you find that the average daily death rate on the road is about the same as these terrible Easter tragedies. We are rather inclined to forget that we have this terrible toll.
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE EARL OF LONGFORD)My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Viscount would agree to put that in the form of a question.
LORD TEYNHAMMy Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that these accidents are often not the fault of the motorists, but the fault of the pedestrians.
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, referring to the first supplementary question, it is true that the average is about 21 per day. So far as the second question by the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, is concerned, pedestrians are involved, motor-cyclists are involved, ordinary cyclists are involved, and children playing on the roads are involved. But one has to bear in mind the whole time that the motorist has at his command a lethal weapon, and it is his ability to use it which really matters. Equally, one has to bear in mind—and this we will do in the analysis which is now being made—that at holiday times there is not the same heavy lorry traffic on the road, and that the traffic consists of motor cars, motor-cycles and pedestrians.
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, may I ask the Government whether they are considering, in the analysis of this problem 718 trying to get the proportion of accidents to car-miles run, because I think that is important?
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, that is one of the factors taken into account when percentages are given.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that some of us are getting rather worried about the number of supplementary questions asked on Starred Questions, and I would ask whether it would be possible at some time to have a debate on procedure.
§ LORD LINDGRENThat is not for me to answer.
§ LORD COLWYNMy Lords, are the Government aware that, if a man failed a driving test in this country, it was possible, up to a few months ago, for him to go to Eire, where he could get a driving licence to drive in this country? I should like to know how many Southern Irish are driving in this country on Irish provisional licences.
§ LORD LINDGRENMy Lords, with the greatest respect to the noble Lord, I think that is outside this Question. If he likes to put a Question down, I will gladly answer it for him.