HL Deb 14 April 1965 vol 265 cc392-5

2.57 p.m.

LORD COLYTON

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what contribution Ministers of the Crown and civil servants make towards the cost of official luncheons and dinners which they attend and which are paid for by Government Hospitality.]

LORD MITCHISON

My Lords, the answer to the noble Lord's Question is, "None". There has been no change in the practice since the Government Hospitality Fund was first started in 1908.

LORD COLYTON

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether it is not a fact that civil servants, when they attend a Government function, are expected to contribute the equivalent of the meal they would otherwise have had? May I ask him whether he is also aware, as was certainly the case during the several years that I was a delegate to the United Nations General Assembly, that members of the British delegation, including Ministers and civil servants, always had to contribute to the cost of meals given by the British delegation in New York?

LORD MITCHISON

My Lords, the Question I was asked was about "official luncheons and dinners… which are paid for by Government Hospitality" and my information is that, as regards those luncheons and dinners, there is no contribution by either Ministers of the Crown or civil servants; and, further, that that has been the case since 1908. I am glad to hear that the noble Lord did well in America, but the question of what was paid for, and who paid for it, is quite different from the Question I am answering to-day.

LORD COLYTON

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he will make further inquiries? If he will do so, I think he will find that civil servants in this country are supposed to contribute the equivalent of the value of the meal. I think that this is most important. I can see no reason why Ministers should not do the same, particularly in view of the necessity for curbing unnecessary and extravagant Government expenditure on entertainment, to which the right honourable gentleman, Mr. Shinwell, referred in the Budget debate in another place the other day.

LORD MITCHISON

My Lords, I am sorry to hear that there has been unnecessary extravagance over Government hospitality for the past 57 years. All I would say is that the question is a perfectly clear one. The Answer that I was asked to make is a perfectly clear one, too, and I have no reason to doubt the veracity of my informant.

LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE

My Lords, with respect to my noble friend Lord Colyton, may I ask whether it is not rather a mean and petty matter to make civil servants—and, for that matter, Ministers—pay a quota, being the fictional amount they would have spent if they had eaten at home—that is what it amounts to—when it is their duty to entertain important deputations or visitors? Should they not be trusted to do the right thing? If they eat modestly and reasonably, as I have done, at hospitality functions, should not that be taken as part of their essential duty? Are we not being too squeamish about shillings and pence?

BARONESS HORSBRUGH

My Lords, can the noble Lord say why, if what he says is the case, members of a delegation, such as to the Council of Europe, are charged with a certain amount when they attend an official lunch? They certainly eat less at home than the cost they have to bear when they attend the lunch.

LORD MITCHISON

My Lords, with respect, I entirely agree with the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Fraser of Lonsdale. As to the question put by the noble Lady, that really is about another kind of dinner or lunch. It is not about a dinner or lunch paid for out of the Government Hospitality Fund. If the noble Lady would like to ask me a question about this other kind of dinner or lunch—be it better or worse —I will do my best to answer it.

THE EARL OF DUNDEE

My Lords, are not Ministers who attend these functions sacrificing their livers for the good of their country?

LORD COLYTON

My Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Mitchison, agrees with my noble friend Lord Fraser of Lonsdale, will he make inquiries and ensure in future that civil servants are not called upon to make this payment from which Ministers are free?

LORD MITCHISON

My Lords, I can only repeat, for, I think, the third time, that I have been told that civil servants do not, in the case referred to in the Question, make any contribution, and I have no reason to doubt the veracity of my informants. If the noble Lord would let me know the evidence on which he bases his statement I shall be glad to check the matter but as at present advised, I can only abide by what I have already said twice.

LORD CONESFORD

My Lords, may ask the noble Lord one further question? He mentioned a very early date for the inauguration of the Government Hospitality Fund, but I think I am right in saying that the number of these official luncheons and dinners has enormously increased in recent times. Can he give any indication of what result in the national interest they are designed to bring about?

LORD MITCHISON

My Lords, I am afraid that it is not my business to keep count of the number of Government hospitality luncheons and dinners. The noble Lord has no doubt attended so many of them that he is in a position to say that they have increased. I am not: I have no idea.

LORD CONESFORD

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that he can get a very good idea simply by reading the Press?