HL Deb 25 November 1964 vol 261 cc816-7

2.50 p.m.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will publish at an early date the Criminal Statistics for 1963 so that the House may have regard to them when considering any proposals for penal reform.]

THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM)

My Lords, I cannot be more precise than I was when I told the noble Lord in my letter of November 13 that my right honourable friend intended to publish these statistics about the middle of next month, almost certainly during the week ending December 19.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving me a fairly precise date. Can he give an undertaking that we shall not have to consider any legislation dealing with penal reform until we have had a chance of looking at these statistics?

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I cannot possibly commit Her Majesty's Government in that way, but the noble Lord can be assured that the point he is making will be kept in mind.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, I am sorry to press the noble Lord, and I realise that he cannot give a firm answer at the moment, but does he realise that this information is absolutely necessary before we can give a considered opinion about such legislation?

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, that is what I had in mind in saying that the noble Lord's point would be kept in I mind. I am sure he is aware, however, that provisional figures were given by the previous Home Secretary as long ago as June 5, in answer to a Question in another place. This Answer gives a great deal of information, and, if the noble Lord wishes, I will send him a copy of it.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, does the noble Lord realise that, much as one would like to, one cannot get from an Answer the full figures one requires. There is far more information in the books of statistics which one has to study.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I am aware that this is a 150-page book, and, unfortunately, there are more figures in it this time than in previous years. That is one of the reasons for the long delay. Another is that the noble Lord, when he was at the Home Office, did not see that the worn-out punched card processing machines used there were replaced. We certainly take the noble Lord's point, and if it should happen that a Bill comes up for Second Reading before these statistics are published, he will have an opportunity on Second Reading of making the point he is now making.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, the noble Lord must be aware that these figures used to be published in June to July. Apparently they are now to be published in December. Can he tell us whether this delay is due to the fact that they are now handled by computers instead of human minds?

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, my noble friend will be aware that the Party opposite were never very computer conscious. But now that we have a more technologically-conscious Government we hope that the 1964 figures produced by computer will be published much earlier. We are also hoping for better results from the fact that in interdepartmental committee has now been set up to review this whole matter. My noble friend Lady Wootton of Abinger is a member of that committee.