HL Deb 18 November 1964 vol 261 cc569-71

2.49 p.m.

VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have noted the action of the Musicians Union in banning the Rolling Stones from performing in South Africa, and whether they will take steps to prevent trade unions from taking upon themselves the duties of a Foreign Office.]

THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD LINDGREN)

My Lords, I do not think it would be advisable for the Government to intervene in the internal affairs of trade unions in matters of this kind.

VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his Answer, may I ask whether he is aware that there is a considerable body of opinion in this country that is becoming increasingly anxious at what I can only describe as a usurping by trade unions of powers which have nothing at all to do with them? I should have hoped that Her Majesty's Government would at any rate show some displeasure. If, for instance, the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons were to forbid vets to go to Ghana to cure swine fever, because, shall we say, they disagreed with the politics of Ghana, can the noble Lord imagine the vast outcry which would come from the Left? I think the Government ought to show some displeasure.

LORD LINDGREN

My Lords, in this country we leave trade unions, employers' organisations and other organisations to settle their own rules and procedure, and it is open to members of those organisations, through their usual channels, to change those rules, whatever the organisation, according to the procedure allowed for in their own constitution.

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that in fact this action of the unions is in agreement or accord with the moral policy of Her Majesty's Government about which we heard yesterday?

LORD LINDGREN

My Lords, this is not a question of the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

EARL FERRERS

Is it not in accord with it?

LORD LINDGREN

My Lords, it is not a matter of what is in accord with the policy of Her Majesty's Government. These are really matters for employers and trade unions in any industry to settle between themselves, without Government interference.

LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE

My Lords, may I ask this question arising out of the Minister's reply? If Her Majesty's Government feel free to express their views on the internal administration of foreign Governments, of friendly Governments which used to be in the Commonwealth, would they not also feel free to express their opinion on an action such as is referred to in this Question?

LORD LINDGREN

With the greatest respect to the House, I suggest that procedure for trade unions is an entirely different matter from negotiations between Governments of various countries.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord what is the difference between trade unions and the Smethwick Labour Club, on which, I understand, the Prime Minister expressed disapproval?

LORD LINDGREN

My Lords, at least my right honourable friend the Prime Minister had the courage to say what he believes, which is more than one can say for the Leader of the Opposition in another place.

LORD CARRINGTON

That is what I am asking the noble Lord to do.

LORD SOMERS

My Lords, while I accept the noble Lord's opinion, is it not true that the Government are in a good deal closer concord with the trade unions than are the Opposition, and that therefore they would probably listen to their opinions a good deal more seriously? Is it not also peculiar in his eyes that the Musicians Union have shown no opposition—in fact have encouraged—the goings and comings of musicians between the Soviet Union and ourselves for many years?

LORD LINDGREN

My Lords, again with the greatest respect I suggest that the question is going a little wide. There is, in so far as the question of the relationship between workers and employers is concerned, and international Convention, which this country has ratified, and this is quite in accordance with the Convention which, I believe, subject to correction, is Convention No. 87.