§ 3.0 p.m.
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they propose to reorganise secondary education on comprehensive lines and, if so, by what means, legislative or otherwise.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR EDUCATION AND SCIENCE (LORD BOWDEN)My Lords, it is the Government's policy to reorganise secondary education on comprehensive lines. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State intends to publish in the fairly near future a Statement of the principles which he will expect local education authorities to follow in implementing this policy. The Government have no present intention of introducing legislation on this subject.
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for answering the first part of my Question, but he has not, of course, answered the second part. Since the noble Lord has confirmed categorically that it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to reorganise secondary education on comprehensive lines, could he answer this question? Since there is no power at the present time for the Secretary of State to enforce any kind of secondary education on the schools of this country, what will Her Majesty's Government do if a number of local education authorities decline, as they would be fully entitled to do, to act upon the exhortations of Her Majesty's Government?
§ LORD BOWDENMy Lords, the fact that the local education authorities have complete autonomy is of course one of the most important facts upon which the Secretary of State will base his Statement. I believe he is writing it with his own hand and is working very hard on it, and I am quite sure he will not have forgotten this extremely important point. After all, it has always been one of the glories of the English educational system that there is room in it for a great variety. Indeed, I think I am right in saying that about two-thirds of the 577 local authorities have put forward plans of varied types for comprehensive education; others are equally convinced that for the moment they want to have no part of it. But the Government are perfectly within their rights, and in fact, must take the initiative, in prescribing. policy, and they have little doubt that when it has been produced it will be found to be so reasonable that few local authorities will wish to ignore it. I must ask your Lordships to wait for the Statement before any detailed comment is made, because until it is ready we hardly know where we are.
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, with great respect I do not see how the noble Lord can ask me or your Lordships to wait with regard to this. During the General Election the Labour Party made a most categorical statement that secondary education would be reorganised on comprehensive lines, and that statement has been repeated to-day. That categorical assertion means, does it not, that the Government are going to see to it that reorganisation takes place. Supposing local education authorities decline to accept the advice of Her Majesty's Government, what are they going to do about it? This is a stick which, if I may say so, Her Majesty's Government have made for their own backs.
§ LORD BOWDENMy Lords, I think it worth while to say that this particular point was the very first question I raised with the Secretary of State when he was embarking on the preparation of the document. It has always been obvious to everybody that it is one of the fundamental problems with which we are confronted. It is therefore, I think, all the more important that we wait for the Statement which the Secretary of State is preparing at the moment. I feel that there is little more I can add to-day.
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, are we not to assume that it is, in fact, a misleading statement to say categorically that the Government will reorganise secondary education in this country on comprehensive lines, unless the Government are going to take powers to be in a position to do it?
§ LORD BOWDENMy Lords, I do not think there is any reason to infer anything so drastic as that, and I can assure noble Lords that this point is very much in 578 the mind of Her Majesty's Government. It was, in fact, the very first question I propounded to the Secretary of State when, about three weeks ago, he started preparation of this document. I can assure your Lordships that it is very much in our minds, and it will be covered, I am quite confident, in the statement which my right honourable friend is proposing to make in the course of the next few days.
§ BARONESS HORSBRUGHMy Lords, might I ask the noble Lord what is meant by his comment that Her Majesty's Government were in favour of varying schemes. Are we therefore to take it that education is not going to be only comprehensive? Secondly, my fear is this: if it is only comprehensive what is going to happen to the voluntary grammer schools, the church grammar schools?
§ LORD BOWDENMy Lords, I feel that this, again, is a matter which must await the production of the Statement, because, quite obviously, the position of the voluntary schools raises very special problems, and my right honourable friend has every intention of considering them with great care. He has, in fact, made references to denominations—many of the voluntary schools are organised by religious denominations—and he is expecting to meet them very shortly, at their request, to discuss these problems with them.
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord this question. I appreciate his request that we should await the Paper that he foreshadows, but he used the expression that Her Majesty's Government were going to prescribe something to the local education authorities. I think he said that in a supplementary answer, but is that really what he meant?
§ LORD BOWDENMy Lords, I am sure that I did not use the word "prescribe". What we are proposing to do is to prepare a series of recommendations to local authorities, bearing always in mind that for the moment at least, and I hope for a very long time, local authorities have the initiative in determining their own policy within very wide limits. This is a policy which I regard as wholly admirable. It has for many years been the policy in this country to leave a great deal of initiative in local hands, and I hope that this will 579 continue. Since I myself took the initiative in posing this as a problem to the Secretary of State, I am quite confident that he will not forget to include it in the document. I would ask your Lordships to await the Statement and then we shall be in a position to discuss it.
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, I do not want to be beastly to the noble Lord about this but he keeps saying that we must wait. He said that it is the policy of the Government to secure reorganisation of secondary education. He has admitted that the Government have no powers at this moment to enforce that. Yet he is not prepared to give an assurance that the Government propose to take powers. If he will not commit himself on the necessary legislation, may I have an assurance that he is not going to rely on subsection (1) of Section 99 of the Education Act, 1944? May I ask for a further assurance that it will not be the policy of the Government to try to enforce this reorganisation by manipulating the major school building programme?
§ LORD BOWDEN My Lords, I really do not think I can go into this. After all, we have had a fairly lengthy period of quiescence in the educational world—I think it is thirteen years; it might be well to wait a few weeks. I am sure your Lordships will be interested to know that already something like two-thirds of local authorities have put in proposals—some for comprehensive schools which we may or may not be able to approve. I would urge your Lordships to remember that Her Majesty's. Government are equally likely to reject a proposal for a comprehensive school which is considered unreasonable as it would be to reject any other proposal considered unreasonable. The Minister has power to comment and put points. I do not think that the question of hypothetical legislation should be raised until such time as we know whether it is going to be necessary, and this we shall not know for at least another six months to a year.
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that your Lordships' House, and the public at large, are now entitled to assume that the Labour Party were bluffing when they said categorically during the Election that Labour will get rid of the segregation of children caused by the 11-plus examination?
§ LORD BOWDENNo; I think that is quite absurd.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTERMy Lords, in view of his statement that so many local authorities have already put in provisional proposals in connection with this reorganisation, may I ask the noble Lord whether he can give us any assurance that the Churches, which have contributed a great deal of money to the voluntary system in the total context, will have proper access and proper consultation at all stages, because this is a matter with which they are greatly concerned?
§ LORD BOWDENIndeed, my Lords, I think I have already made it clear that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State is to receive a delegation from the profession within the next day or two. He may already have met them. But this, clearly, is a matter of great importance, and is recognised as such not only by the Churches but by Her Majesty's Government.
§ THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGHMy Lords, will Her Majesty's Government also bear in mind that an important experiment is now being carried out to determine the age at which secondary education ought to commence? Will not the result of that experiment profoundly affect the plans of local education authorities?
§ LORD BOWDENMy Lords, I am sure that this, too, is a matter of which the Secretary of State is well aware and of which he is taking cognisance in preparing his Paper.
§ LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDALMy Lords, if I heard the noble Lord aright, I believe he said that education over the last thirteen years had been quiescent. Does he really mean that? If so, I think your Lordships are entitled to have that statement withdrawn, in view of the great efforts and progress that have been made in so many directions during the last thirteen years to improve education of all kinds in this country.
§ LORD BOWDENMy Lords, I think that after the next few years it will be possible to make a fairer comparison.