§ 3.40 p.m.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EDUCATION AND SCIENCE (THE EARL OF ESSBOROUGH)My Lords, this may be a suitable moment for me to make a statement on business schools in universities, which my right honourable friend is making in another place. I will, with permission, use my right honourable friend's own words.
"The importance of management studies for the future of our economy has been strongly emphasised by the National Economic Development Council; and the establishment of two major business schools—a new development in this country—was recommended in general terms by the Robbins Committee.
"A Working Party, under the Chairmanship of Lord Normanbrook, was set up at the initiative of the Federation of British Industries. It was asked to give definition to the proposal made by Lord Franks in his recent Report on British Business Schools for the establishment of two new business schools at the Universities of Manchester and London, and, in particular, to examine the costs of starting and running them, and to establish the basis for partnership between business and the universities in their finance and administration. The Working Party included representatives of industry and commerce, and of the two universities themselves, and of the University Grants Committee.
"The Working Party Report, now being published, estimates that the capital costs of the two schools would be about between £2.2 million and about £2.4 million; that, over the first seven years, the total net recurrent cost would be about £1.7 million; and that, thereafter, the net recurrent costs would be £332,000 a year. The Working Party envisage that this financial burden should be shared equally between business and the universities. They also suggest how governing bodies should be constituted to carry out the principle of partnership. 29 "The Government welcome this principle and have sought the advice of the University Grants Committee on the Working Party's proposals from the point of view of policy on university development. They have been glad to learn that the Committee fully endorse them. For their part, the Government have indicated to the Committee and to the F.B.I. that they are prepared to make provision for the universities' share of capital and current expenditure on the two new business schools within the framework of future university programmes. They are also prepared to give sympathetic consideration to the suggestion contained in Lord Franks's Report that awards from public funds should be made available for postgraduate students at these schools. I understand that the Federation of British Industries are now planning an appeal to all sides of the business community for funds for management education which will include their share of the needs of the two schools. I am sure that business will wish to play a full part in this new development from the point of view both of finance and operation.
"In pledging full financial support to the universities concerned I should like to add that the Government do not in any way wish to imply that management studies elsewhere, whether at universities, colleges of advanced technology and technical colleges, or other institutions, will no longer be needed, or are to take second place. Raising the quality of management at all levels calls for the steady development of all the work now going forward in the various parts of our educational system, as well as for the establishment of these two new schools."
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the House will be grateful to the noble Earl for making this important statement—important not only to the universities but also to business, industry and commerce. I think that we should also welcome the initiative of the Federation of British Industries; for, as the noble Earl will be the first to agree, it was they who set up the two Committees, the Franks and the Normanbrook Committees. I think that the Government and the Committees are right in pro- 30 posing that these business schools should be within existing universities and in close proximity to industry. Could the noble Earl say whether the Government have any idea of the number of places that industry would wish to see in these schools? And could he further say, as he has given us detailed information about capital cost and current expenditure, how many places the two schools will provide?
May I also draw the attention of the noble Lord to the importance of these schools for the modernisation of industry and commerce? I hope that they will be a magnet around which modern industry will grow. The noble Earl will be aware that part of the new University of Strathclyde will be the Scottish School of Commerce. It seems extraordinary that when we are creating two new business schools we should not also take this opportunity of developing an existing one, particularly because of the high rate of unemployment in Scotland.
I think that I shall have the noble Earl with me when I say that these business schools must not be merely for the development of business practice within the United Kingdom but must also play a big part in our export drive. One of the main requirements of the export drive is to have men with business training and experience who also have the ability to speak foreign languages. Can the noble Earl say whether modern languages will be taught within the curriculum of these schools? Another valuable practice is that of bringing people from Commonwealth and foreign countries to study our business methods. These students not only build up knowledge but establish friendships with business people in this country that play an important part in future trade. Therefore, I think that in these schools we should have places available for people from the Commonwealth, and, perhaps, from other countries also. I do not know whether the noble Earl can answer any of these questions, but I regard them as of some importance in the establishing of these new business schools.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for his sympathetic and interesting remarks on the statement which I 31 repeated in the House. I think that I can give him one or two answers. To take the last point, in regard to the teaching of languages in these schools which will be of help in our export drive, it is almost certain that languages will be taught, but the whole question of curriculum is a matter for the universities and the schools themselves. In regard to the number of places which it is hoped can be provided at the schools, the Working Party have assumed that each school should be able to provide a one-year course for 200 post-graduates and a 20-week course for 100 post-experience students. In regard to the matter of a third business school—for example, in association with the new University of Strathclyde; that is to say, the Royal College of Science and Technology or Glasgow University—the noble Lord may remember that in their conclusions, the Franks Committee came down in favour of having only two schools, rather than more, because qualified staff and finance were limited. In so far as the question about the Commonwealth is concerned, I cannot give the noble Lord an answer to-day, but I am sure that the point will be looked at most sympathetically by the Government.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, may I ask a further supplementary question? Am I to understand that there will be 100 places for a one-year course in each university or over both?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, each school should be able to provide a one-year course for 200 postgraduates and a 20-week course for 100 post-experience students.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, would the noble Earl, with his business experience, consider that, according to our needs, those figures are pathetic?
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, does the noble Earl not feel that we shall not make much progress unless we introduce a business school into Oxford or Cambridge? Would he not agree that the real trouble about business in this country is that it is ranked so low in terms of prestige, and is not given a very high U rating? Does he not feel that we shall not progress until either Oxford or Cambridge is equipped with a business school?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, I am sure that both these considerations were taken into account by the Franks Committee and the Lord Normanbrook Committee and I think their recommendations are fully worthy of support at this stage.
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, would the noble Earl care to answer my question without this sort of remarkable evasion? Can he tell us why the Franks Committee rejected the arguments which he feels must have been considered by them?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, I am afraid I cannot give the answer at this stage. I have not had much more time than the noble Earl to look at the papers on this subject. However, I will certainly find out the reasons for him if he cannot read them in the Report itself.
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDI had hoped that the noble Earl would be able to give me an answer without forcing me to go and read this Report.
§ LORD HUGHESMy Lords, before there is any danger of another two schools being created in England, may I stress the point which my noble friend Lord Shepherd raised about having such a school in Scotland? He mentioned the University of Strathclyde, which, unless I am mistaken, the Minister then duplicated by referring to it by its present name. But I would draw attention to the fact that there are other opportunities in Scotland. The University of St. Andrews, for instance, took over the Dundee School of Economics, which is one of the leading establishments in the country in this direction and seems to me to be ready-made for the establishment of such a place in Scotland. I am not putting this forward as an alternative, but just pointing out that Scotland does not suffer from a scarcity of opportunity to develop this sort of thing.
May I ask whether the noble Earl will consult with his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, in his capacity as the Minister responsible for education in Scotland, as to the possibility of establishing a school of this kind in Scotland now? As my noble friend Lord Shepherd said, the figures indicated, of 100 or 200 people being able to go there at a particular time, 33 are a mere drop in the bucket in comparison with our need, and if we are not to get a contribution of this kind in Scotland, some of the things which the Government are doing at the present time to help Scotland will be knocked back by the neglect of Scotland in this most important field.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, I am sure the noble Lord's remarks will be taken fully into consideration. In so far as the first part of his observations are concerned, I think I should repeat that in the last part of the statement I said that the Government do not in any way wish to imply that management studies elsewhere, whether at universities, colleges of advanced technology, technical colleges or other institutions, whether they be in England or Scotland, will no longer be needed or will take second place.