HL Deb 16 March 1964 vol 256 cc632-4

2.37 p.m.

THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they propose to take to prevent further damage to the amenities and antiquities of Dartmoor by service units, including units of the Royal Air Force and Territorials.]

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, considerable efforts are made to reconcile the interests of the National Park training which has to be carried out in this area by the Armed Forces, including units of the Strategic Reserve. The area in which live ammunition is used is kept as small as the safety of the public and the needs of training allow. When there is no firing the public can otherwise enter the area. Officers in charge of units training are given instructions to safeguard the amenities, and liaison officers are appointed to deal with complaints. So far as antiquities are concerned, I am not aware that my right honourable friend the Minister of Public Building and Works has received any complaints of any damage to any scheduled monuments as a result of this training.

THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH

Are Her Majesty's Government not aware that a Bronze Age tumulus on Hanging-stone Hill was defaced by a concrete observation post with a flagstaff as late as 1959?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I must confess to some imperfect knowledge of this particular act, but I will certainly look into this possibility. I have, of course, seen the pamphlet produced by the Dartmoor Preservation Society, which I see the noble Earl has in his hand, and I am sure the menhir (if that is the correct description) which is to be seen portrayed on the back has not been damaged by the Armed Forces since the war but was in fact damaged by a member of the Home Guard during the war.

LORD HAWKE

My Lords, my noble friend has said that the general public have access to these areas when firing is not in progress. Apart from the actual noises, what signal is there to tell them that they are free to go on these ranges?

EARL JELLICOE

I think red flags are flown when it is not safe for them to go on the ranges; but, of course, the times when range firing is being carried out are publicised in the local papers.

THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH

My Lords, would the noble Earl consider supplying the commanding officer of every military unit with a copy of this pamphlet, so that their attention may be called to the complaints which are still being made?

EARL JELLICOE

I should be glad to consider that suggestion. But I would merely remind my noble friend that there is an inter-Service Committee for Dartmoor which has recently been set up with a view to looking into, investigating and bringing to the attention of the units concerned the complaints which are made.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, while I appreciate the extreme difficulty of Her Majesty's Forces in finding suitable training grounds in the South of England, and in view of the problem of amenities, may I ask whether the Government would again consider taking our training grounds to, perhaps, the North of Scotland., where they will not interfere with such a large number of people who wish to enjoy their holidays and the general amenities?

EARL JELLICOE

I think this is a slightly wider question. But, of course, at the present time the Army Strategic Reserve and the Royal Marines, for example, are both stationed in the South of England, and so far as I know there would be no accommodation at least immediately available for them in the North of Scotland.

BARONESS HORSBRUGH

My Lords, does the noble Earl realise that perhaps that would not be very acceptable to Scotland?

LORD REA

My Lords, can the Minister assure the House that, when the authorities are banning the public from this area, they do not sing, as well as fly, the Red Flag?