§ 2.45 p.m.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will publish the terms of agreement between the Atomic Energy Authority and Belgonucleaire, what financial contribution has already been made and what is the total commitment.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH)My Lords, in broad terms, the work and any substantial commercial rights are shared equally between the parties. The United Kingdom contribution up to the present has been in terms of manpower and work done solely in the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom will bear a half share of the cost of testing the fuel in the Belgian reactor B.R.3. However, as I said last Tuesday, Belgonucleaire is a commercial undertaking and its agreement with the 324 Atomic Energy Authority is necessarily cast on commercial lines. In these circumstances, it is not possible to publish the terms of the agreement between the two organisations, nor the expenditure which will be incurred. So far, work on this joint project has proceeded satisfactorily.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I thank the noble Earl for dying me an Answer, but I am lost in amazement that such an Answer could come from Her Majesty's Government. This is taxpayers' money that is being handled. I understand that already £3 million voted for three years' work has been absorbed in two years' work, and the noble Earl himself announced that for the current year there will be an additional £2 million. I suppose that we can understand, therefore, that all other objectives are being ruled out and that, if we are putting all our reliance on the Vulcain project, the whole of the £2 million will be spent on tests going on this year. May we assume, therefore, that eventually we shall have to contribute between £3½ and £4 million to the examining and testing of Vulcain?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, I think that the figure given by the noble Earl is roughly correct and, as I say, work is proceeding satisfactorily. I am sorry that it is not possible to make public further details but, as the noble Earl will be aware, the Atomic Energy Authority is itself in some respects a commercial organisation, and the Public Accounts Committee have accepted that its commercial agreements should remain confidential.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, may I ask one other question upon these terms, then? Is the agreement on the basis of a tender or on the basis of an order given for testing work to be done over there at cost plus profit? If the latter, has the noble Earl had time to examine what happened to expenditure of this sort when we were producing armaments before the last World War at cost plus 10 per cent.? That was the condition I found when I went into office and I had to go into the matter and get it reduced. I am amazed to think that Parliament should he excluded from information of this kind on this basis.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, I am sorry that, for the reasons given, I cannot give any further information, but I will certainly represent the noble Earl's views to my right honourable friend.
§ LORD HOBSONMy Lords, can the noble Earl give an undertaking that the amount of money paid to Belgonucleaire will appear in the published accounts of A.E.A., when they lay their report before Parliament?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, I cannot give any undertaking on the part of A.E.A. in this connection.
§ LORD HOBSONMy Lords, can the noble Earl state what reason he has for making that statement, in view of the fact that all accounts are normally published in the annual report of the Authority laid before Parliament. Why this difference in this case? What is the reason and what is the authority for departing from practice?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, the general accounts are published, but in this case it is a commercial undertaking between the two organisations.
§ LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTONMy Lords, while thanking the noble Earl for his courteous replies, may I ask him whether this information is being withheld for defence reasons or for some other reason, because normally the published accounts contain the results, if not all the details, of commercial transactions?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, is it not a fact that the monies to which the noble Earl drew our attention in the debate are definite grants made by Her Majesty's Government to A.E.A., and therefore this is not a strictly commercial operation between A.E.A. and Belgonucleaire? This is the use and expenditure of Government money. Would not the noble Earl agree that there are many occasions, particularly in the aircraft industry, when the Government announce what they have placed for the development of a particular aircraft or other weapon? Why 326 are we faced with this situation? Is it a question of the Government having something to hide, as many of us suspect?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, the Government have nothing to hide in this matter. I regret that I can give no further information, but I shall certainly transmit the noble Lord's views to my right honourable friend.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, this is the third time that I have to say I am wholly dissatisfied with the answers. It is a shocking state of affairs, and now it is beginning to be understood by the Press. The Press also seem to be in great criticism of the Government. The Financial Times wants to know what is the answer to the question: "What is the time for decision?" It is time for decision now, as to what you are going to do. Reports come to us that the Government are not concerned yet whether they will he able to regard the Vulcain as satisfactory—and the expenditure goes on. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the answers, I shall put an Unstarred Question down for Monday.
§ LORD HOBSONMy Lords, will the noble Earl draw the attention of his right honourable friend to the fact that, when the Bloodhound contract was being discussed, the price was revealed, and also the amount paid to Ferranti's who were the contractors? Is not this on all fours with that business arrangement?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, if there is to be an Unstarred Question, perhaps we may continue this discussion later.