§ 2.40 p.m.
§ LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEUMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will arrange for the financial burden of the upkeep of the three Transport Museums at Clapham, Swindon and York to be transferred from British Railways to a Ministry who will have sufficient interest and the necessary Treasury support to preserve these historic collections of transport relics for the benefit of future generations.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM)My Lords, proposals 506 relating to the future of the historical transport relics submitted by the British Railways Board in accordance with the Transport Act, 1962, are still being studied by the Ministry of Transport, in conjunction with the other nationalised transport undertakings. It is perhaps therefore inappropriate to comment in more detail at this stage. My right honourable friend is not, however, persuaded that the direct cost of upkeep of the museums to which the noble Lord refers should fall otherwise than upon the successors of the transport undertakings which have formed the collections. Nor does he accept the implication that the transport bodies concerned necessarily have less interest in preserving the collections than a Government Department. So I should be misleading the noble Lord if I were to give him reason to suppose that present studies are likely to lead to arrangements of the kind he envisages.
§ LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEUMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. I am sure it will relieve the minds of many people who may have thought that the future of these collections was being threatened. I should like to ask the noble Lord, in view of the fact that some people urge that the transport museums can be self-supporting, whether he thinks that enough publicity has been given to encourage visitors, in order to increase the income of the museums.
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, the amount of publicity is something about which I do not know off-hand, but I can tell my noble friend that, in the course of these discussions, we have put several suggestions to the Railways Board for reducing the financial burden on the museums, for sharing expenses with the other relevant transport undertakings, for means of securing economy, and for a possible way of increasing receipts. Those suggestions are at present being studied by the Board.
§ LORD HOBSONMy Lords, will the noble Lord bear in mind, when considering this burden, that many of the exhibits have been bought by private purchase? And will he do something to relieve this burden?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, I am not sure whether I have correctly taken 507 the noble Lord's meaning. Does he mean that the people who bought them privately should have their money back?
§ LORD HOBSONNo. Bearing in mind that the exhibits have been provided by private people and are of national interest—take, for example, the locomotive "Mallard", which is world-famous—surely that should be a consideration for the Government to have in mind in helping these museums.
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, of course, in a sense, the Government are already helping the museums, in that the deficit on them is charged to the Railways Board's revenue account, which is met from the Exchequer.
§ LORD HURCOMBMy Lords, may I, as the first Chairman of the British Transport Commission, say that generally I support the attitude which the Minister has just expressed? I took the view that in regard to objects of antiquarian, archæological and engineering interest and in regard also to the archives held by the old railway companies and other transport undertakings it was part of the duty of a nationalised undertaking to make proper provision for their preservation and collection and, in so doing, to establish a higher standard of curatorship and scholarship than had hitherto been the case. May I say that I support the position the Minister takes? It is a perfectly proper part, and I should have thought a necessary part, of the duty of any nationalised undertaking, as it is of any large industrialised undertaking—
§ LORD HURCOMBMay I add that, in so far as—
§ LORD HURCOMBIn so far as any cost is to fall upon the Exchequer, it is most easily met by letting it be a minute fraction of the deficit, which we are not likely to get rid of for some time.
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, I am grateful for what I think is the support expressed in the noble Lord's supplementary question.
§ LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDALMy Lords, may I ask the Minister what 508 is the extent of the financial burden, and what active steps are being taken to make it possible to reduce the financial burden and turn these museums into what they might well become—namely, a financial asset?
§ LORD CHESHAMMy Lords, the amount is of the order of £90,000 a year. I set out the various suggestions which have been made and which the Board are at present considering.