§ 3.5 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT ECCLESMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what was the number of awards offered to postgraduate students in 1959, and in the current year.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EDUCATION AND SCIENCE (THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH)My Lords, the number of postgraduate awards offered by education departments and the Research Councils in 1959 was 1,600. In the current year it will be over 3,700, including about 1,000 for the arts and social studies and about 2,700 for scientific and technological subjects.
§ VISCOUNT ECCLESMy Lords, in welcoming this encouraging increase since 1959, may I ask my noble friend two further questions? First, are the dependants' allowances generous enough not to deter married men from applying for these three-year awards? And, secondly, is he satisfied with the low proportion of women who obtain these awards?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, with regard to allowances, it is possible for a married postgraduate to receive £175 a year for his wife, £60 a year for the first child, £40 a year for the second, and £35 for any further children. In my view, these allowances seem to be satisfactory. They are, of course, based on the advice of a Standing Advisory Committee, and, so far as I know, there have recently been no complaints. The allowances have, of course, increased since 1959.
§ VISCOUNT ECCLESCan my noble friend say something about the women?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHSo far as women are concerned, of course there is no special allocation for them in the number of awards offered, but last year women received about 26½ per cent. of the awards for the arts and for social studies but only, I regret to say, about 6 per cent. for science and technology. The low figure for the scientific awards does, unfortunately, show the relative lack of interest of women in postgraduate scientific work, and the Government would certainly welcome more women postgraduates in pure science, and particularly in applied science and technology. I am most grateful to the noble Viscount for having referred to this matter, and I hope that the ladies will note what we have said. But, overall, I think it must be admitted that this very considerable increase in postgraduate awards reflects considerable credit on those concerned.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, as the noble Earl has invited the ladies to note what he has said, may I ask him this? Why is it that the proportion of women in both these groups is low-26 per cent. and 6 per cent.? Does he think it is because women are less intelligent than men? Secondly, would he let me know the proportion of women on the Advisory Committee?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, I am afraid I have not got the composition of the Advisory Committee, but I will certainly let the noble Baroness know.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLIf when the noble Earl examines the names in the Advisory Committee he finds it is all male, will he give an undertaking that he will see that some women are put on it? It is important because curiously there is a bias in the minds of men sometimes. Secondly, will he see, please, that not just one woman is on the Committee? Too often, as we know, the shop window is dressed in order to satisfy the conscience. Will the noble Earl see that women are dealt with equitably in this matter?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, I will certainly look into this for 313 the noble Baroness—and I am glad to see there are so many noble Baronesses in this House to-day.
§ LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETHMy Lords, if there is not a reasonable proportion of women on the Advisory Committee, I think that is worthy of consideration. But can the noble Earl say, as regards the proportion of women who get through, whether there is any fixed percentages of awards for men and women—I should have thought not; or are the percentages determined by those who happen to gel through the examination and qualify?
§ LORD CHORLEYMy Lords, may I suggest to the noble. Earl that the figures he has given show that there is an over-weighting in these awards in favour of science and technology as opposed to the social sciences and the arts? Has the noble Earl seen the very interesting researches which have recently been carried through which indicate that a great deal of the original thought on which we rely so much is carried out by people who are in the arts as opposed to the scientific faculties, and will he therefore see to it that the number of awards to the arts and social sciences is stepped up?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, I do not think I can very well give that undertaking to the noble Lord. After all, our main objective at present is to encourage more and more people to go in for science and technology and especially applied science.
§ LORD HOBSONMy Lords, can the noble Earl state categorically whether male and female graduates doing postgraduate research in the same subject get the same allowances?
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, the noble Earl gave us figures; for science, technology and the arts. Could he give us the figures for medicine as well?
§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORT- FOLIO (LORD CARRINGTON)My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord 314 has looked at the original Question. It seems to me that my noble friend has been asked a great many supplementaries quite outside the scope of the original Question.
LORD REAMy Lords, may I ask one supplementary which I think is within its scope? We all know what an undergraduate is, and we all know what a graduate is. Can he tell us what a postgraduate is? Is he alive or dead?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGHMy Lords, the level of the questions this afternoon seems to me perhaps to have fallen a little, even if one has just come from the noble Lord the Leader of the Liberal Party. As a matter of fact, I can give to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, the figure for medical research for 1963. I am afraid that for certain reasons, which I can explain to him later, I cannot give him the figure for this year, as it has not been finally fixed. But last year, in 1963, there were 153 awards given by the Medical Research Council.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his answer. And am I not right in saying that my question was well within the original Question?
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask what proportion of those were women?