HL Deb 22 June 1964 vol 259 cc8-10

2.50 p.m.

LORD WISE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government how they propose to deal with the considerable tonnage of barley and other agricultural products which is at present sent by rail to Scotland and elsewhere from Great Ryburgh staion, if British Railways Board's proposal to close the station is carried out.]

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have no proposal for dealing with this because it is not a matter for them to deal with. The decision to close a railway line to freight services is one for the British Railways Board. I understand that when the withdrawal of freight facilities is proposed if is the British Railways' practice to have discussions with their customers. No doubt those affected will be considering what alternative arrangements best suit them for the transport of their products.

LORD WISE

My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that active negotiations have already been taking place between the firm concerned and the British Railways Board in regard to putting in a new siding at this particular station? Have those negotiations fallen through in view of the possibility of closing that particular line? The barley traffic referred to is at about 20 wagons per week to Scotland and 2 wagons per week to London and elsewhere. That being so, the freight charges which the firm will have to bear during the course of the year will more than cover the estimated loss on the line concerned.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, of course I was not aware of the negotiations about a siding, referred to by the noble Lord, because this is a matter of management for the Railways Board. As regards getting the barley and other products away, I understand from the British Railways that facilities will exist for doing so from Dereham, which is a matter of nine to ten miles from Ryburgh, from where it has been going.

LORD WISE

My Lords, arising out of that reply, is the Minister not aware that the extra cost to the firm of transferring their barley wagons to Dereham by road, as they will have to go, will put them out of competition so far as their prices are concerned for their commodities, and will possibly lose considerable trade from the area, which would thus create unemployment.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, I think the producers already have to transport their products to Ryburgh by road, and I cannot see that that will be so, in view of the rather moderate distance involved, as the noble Lord will agree, in taking them to Dereham instead. I find that most of the cost in moving my own products is in loading up, and that once they have been loaded on board distance is a much smaller factor. I would ask the noble Lord to bear in mind that the railways are also supposed to be a commercial enterprise, and that his argument for what is, in effect, a subsidy to the producers from the railways is not really a good one.

LORD LINDGREN

My Lords, the noble Lord has in his answers tended to lead the House to believe that the whole of the decision is with the Railways Board. Is it not a fact that there has been pressure from the Minister on unremunerative lines services should be discontinued, in order that there can be more quickly a break-even, irrespective of the social effects of the closures?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, it is certainly not a fact of which I am aware.

LORD WISE

My Lords, may I come back to the last reply of the Minister, in which he said that producers could take their products to Dereham? If they take their products to Dereham instead of to Great Ryburgh the maltings at Great Ryburgh will eventually have to close down.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, that seems to me to be a somewhat different question.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, can the Minister say whether the social and economic factors of the effect on industry in the area have been considered at all by the Minister?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, as I said in my original reply, and as the noble Lord well knows, the closing of freight services is a matter for the British Railways Board.