§ 2.35 p.m.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether tins of corned beef cooled with unchlorinated water are still on sale to the public.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (LORD ST. OSWALD)My Lords, the direct Answer to the Question is, Yes. But I should point out that what is important—as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, will appreciate—is not whether the water is chlorinated but whether it is clean. The mere addition of chlorine may not always achieve that; on the other hand, it may not always be necessary, because the water is already clean.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend how much corned beef cooled with unchlorinated water is, in fact, being sold, and how much is in stock?—because, judging from the figures given so far, there are vast quantities of corned beef cooled with unchlorinated water on sale to the public and presumably carrying a risk.
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, I never want to be at cross-purposes with the noble Lord. We are both looking for the same answer. The point I made in my substantive Answer was that what is more important is not whether the water used in cooling particular batches of tins was chlorinated but whether it was pure. What we have done is to single out those batches canned over a particular period which we have reason to suppose were 1108 cooled in unsatisfactory conditions, and those have been withdrawn and/or are being withheld from sale.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the batch responsible for the typhoid cases at Harlow last year, details of which have recently been reported in the medical Press, is among those now withdrawn from sale?
LORD ST. OSWALDYes, my Lords. Measures were taken at the time, long before this, to withdraw the stocks which formed part of the batches involved in the three outbreaks at Harlow, South Shields and Bedford; and those stocks have not been re-issued.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, is it not the fact that in order that there should be any danger, two circumstances are necessary—namely, that the cooling water shall be infected with typhoid, and that the tins should be defective in order that the water gets inside them?
LORD ST. OSWALDYes, my Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. The fact is—if I may put it in a picturesque way —that it is necessary for a droplet of water containing bacteria to coincide with a pinhole or a tiny fault in the seam of the can through which it can obtain entry. This might conceivably happen in one in several million tins.
§ LORD FERRIERMy Lords, arising out of that question and answer, may I ask whether the tins in question are labelled in the country of origin and whether or not any examination is carried out of the gum by which the label is affixed and which might be infected and so might infect the contents of the tin in the act of opening?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, I regret that I cannot answer that question without notice. I thought that my noble friend was asking whether the tins are stamped as having been canned and processed under satisfactory conditions. In fact, that is so. Every batch of tins of meat coming from abroad carries a certificate to that effect from the Government of the country of origin.
§ LORD FERRIERMy Lords, as I have had experience of infected gum on the labels of tins in tropical countries, it occurred to me, when thinking of 1109 the minute pinhole and of the actual opening of the tin, that it is conceivable that the gum (which is a protein, I believe) might be infected, and I wondered whether the gum had been examined.
LORD ST. OSWALDNo, my Lords, I do not think so. We have absolutely no evidence of infection caused by the gum from the inside of the label finding its way into the tin.