HL Deb 10 June 1964 vol 258 cc881-4

2.46 p.m.

THE EARL OF DUNDONALD

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government in connection with the proposal of British Railways to withdraw Passenger Services between Oban—Connel Ferry and Ballachulish:—

  1. (a) What profits have been made by British Railways from the collection of tolls on Connel Ferry Bridge from road users during the years 1961, 1962 and 1963.
  2. (b) Whether these figures have been taken into account in calculating the profitability or otherwise of the operation of the rail passenger services that it is proposed should be withdrawn.
  3. (c) In the event of these passenger services being withdrawn, what plans British Railways have made to reduce the time vehicles have to wait to cross this bridge (which in the summer months can exceed one hour), bearing in mind that everyone will then have to cross by road, including school children travelling to and from Oban, who at present do this journey by train from Benderloch and stations to the North.]

THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM)

My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Ferrers explained in reply to a Question by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, on 28th January, this bridge is owned by the British Railways Board, and my right honourable friend does not feel justified in asking them to provide details of the operation and results of particular facilities of this sort unless they are directly relevant to the exercise of any of my right honourable friend's functions. As the road bridge will remain, whether or not the rail passenger service is withdrawn, these figures are not relevant to the only proposal with which my right honourable friend is likely to be concerned.

For the same reason, the income from road tolls, the cost of collection and the cost of maintaining the roadway have not, I understand, been taken into account by the Railways Board in calculating the economic effect of the withdrawal of the passenger service. So far as delays at the bridge are concerned, if all rail services, including freight services, were withdrawn the whole width of the bridge would be come available for road traffic. An improvement in the traffic flow could then be expected.

THE EARL OF DUNDONALD

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for the information he has given. I am naturally disappointed that we are unable to know what are the actual figures in the way of profits from the toll. Could I ask him to bear in mind in the deliberations which may take place that, although I am not informed as to the division of track costs as between passenger services and goods services, for some time the passenger services have been operated with 1,500 h.p. locomotives pulling two coaches? If this is borne in mind in any figures which are arrived at it will be seen that it is very uneconomic.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, I have listened to what my noble friend has said, and I will certainly do as he asks, although I find it has a somewhat tenuous connection with the subject of his original Question.

VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware of the extremely bad motor road between Ballachulish and Connel? If the school children who come from Ballachulish, from Appin and from Benderloch every day to high school in Oban, and return every evening, have to come by bus, owing to the withdrawal of the rail passenger services, I think it unlikely that they will arrive in time for school. The queues at the bridge will be far greater if the passenger services are withdrawn. If the passenger and freight services are withdrawn at the same time, I quite agree that the capacity of the bridge then available will be larger and can take more traffic. If both services are not withdrawn at the same time there will be a great build-up of traffic either side of the bridge.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, the question of the traffic capacity of the road is one of those matters that my right honourable friend, in consultation with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, will have in mind for consideration, when in due course the proposal reaches him.

Arising from what my noble friend said, if in the transport of the school children an element of hardship was found to be involved, that point would come out as a result of the T.U.C.C's consideration, when it takes place.

THE EARL OF DUNDONALD

My Lords, arising out of the question of my noble friend Lord Massereene and Ferrard, may I ask whether the Minister is aware that the road distance from South Connel to North Connel, by any alternative route other than crossing the bridge is over 100 miles?

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, it may well arise from the question of my noble friend Lord Massereene and Ferrard, but I am not quite sure whether it arises from my noble friend's original Question. But I can at least stretch a point and say: Yes, my Lords, we did know that.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, is it not the case that that is a consideration which will have to be taken into account by the right honourable gentleman, the Minister of Transport? Would the noble Lord confirm that all the financial questions must be taken into account before his right honourable friend arrives at his decision and, therefore, the earnings from this bridge, although they cannot now be disclosed, are indeed relevant to this matter?—because, surely, it is not possible for the line to be closed if his right honourable friend is aware that overall it is showing a profit.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, I am sorry to say that the only thing I can confirm is that I did not grasp the point of the noble Lord's question. I did not quite follow what he was getting at.

LORD STONHAM

I must apologise, my Lords. I have a bit of a cold, and I will try to make my question a little more clear. It has three points. First, the fact that the distance is 100 miles by road if you do not cross the bridge is a matter which must be taken into consideration by Mr. Marples before arriving at a decision. Secondly, since the only justification for closing this line is that it is losing money, Mr. Marples must take into consideration the earnings from this toll bridge in arriving at a decision and, therefore, the earnings are indeed relevant although for obvious reasons they cannot now be disclosed.

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, as I thought I had just said, such considerations as the 100 miles alternative distance are exactly the kind of relevant factor that my right honourable friends (in the plural in this case) would take into consideration in coming to a decision. But I still do not see quite how to relate the earnings of the toll bridge to the costs of the passenger service at the present time, although I would say that the anticipated future revenue from the toll bridge might well be a factor that they will have to take into consideration if there is any question of assessing alternative methods of transport.