HL Deb 09 June 1964 vol 258 cc775-80

2.40 p.m.

LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any statement to make as to the desire of the Manchester Corporation to abstract water from Lakes Windermere and Ullswater; and whether, before any such Scheme receives Governmental approval, they will set up an independent committee to inquire into the merits of abstracting water direct from the lakes or, alternatively, of abstracting it from the estuaries.]

LORD HASTINGS

My Lords, I understand that Manchester have decided to apply to my right honourable friend for power to take water from Lakes Windermere and Ullswater to meet their immediate short-term needs. The extent and urgency of their needs were established by the conference presided over by my noble friend Lord Jellicoe in 1962 and 1963, and my right honourable friend therefore conceives it to be his first duty to consider this application as soon as it is received. There will, of course, be the fullest opportunity for objections to be heard at a public local inquiry. Proposals for taking water from the estuaries are being considered already, but they are long-term proposals and could not help to meet Manchester's immediate needs.

LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE

My Lords, since my noble friend mentioned the Jellicoe Committee, and since, out of that Committee, came the Act of Parliament upon which we spent so many weeks and months last year, and since that Act provides safeguards which are not in the present law, will my noble friend assure us that he will not in any circumstances permit Manchester to retain these rights under old legislation instead of waiting for the safeguards which this House has put into new legislation? May I further ask him whether he will bear in mind that, while thirsty millions in the great conurbations must have their water, it is a matter of long-term concern and of great concern to the whole land that the beauties of the Lake District should be preserved, because once they are gone they are irreplaceable.

LORD HASTINGS

While I agree with what the noble Lord said about the beauties of the Lake District, I am not sure to what legislation he refers, unless it is to the Water Resources Act, 1963. Is that the Act to which he referred?— because that Act did not arise out of the Jellicoe Committee.

LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE

But it does not come into force until next April, does it?—and Manchester is going to get in a quick one in between.

LORD HASTINGS

My Lords, that still has nothing to do with the Act. But certainly under the Water Resources Act, 1963, one of the first duties of the river authorities will be to assess the water resources in their areas and the demands made on them and to formulate and carry out proposals. The question under consideration is dealing with short-term needs arising out of the Jellicoe Report. There has been a great deal of consultation since then and Manchester has decided to go ahead in this way. It will be for the Minister, after a public inquiry, to decide what should be done. There is no question of trying to "jump" the Act or anything like that.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, in view of the very great national importance of the areas involved, will the Government give an assurance that, before Manchester is given the powers for which they ask, the matter will be referred to us here in Parliament and we shall be given the opportunity of discussing it? In cases of this kind a public inquiry is not nearly enough There is need for something much more than that.

LORD HASTINGS

Of course, my Lords, if the Minister should decide to confirm the Order —and this is going to be done by way of Order—and objections are still outstanding, then in the normal course of events the matter would be subject to Special Parliamentary Procedure. Then Parliament will have an opportunity to discuss it.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

But I want an assurance that it will be referred to Parliament. This is not just a matter for a local inquiry; this is a matter affecting the great beauty spots of England.

LORD HASTINGS

My Lords, I will refer the matter to my right honourable friend and see that he knows what the noble Marquess has said.

LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH

My Lords, while agreeing that everybody must be heard, including those who wish to protect the beauties of Lakeland, which we should not want to spoil, nevertheless will the noble Lord and the Government keep in mind that a great city like Manchester—and not only Manchester, but a number of other authorities on the way—must have water; and there is a danger of their being denied access to adequate water supplies for their people, necessary on public health grounds? Will he see to it that the law is protected and that Manchester has every chance to make its case, which is very urgent?

LORD HASTINGS

My Lords, that of course would be the purpose of my right honourable friend and the purpose of the public local inquiry.

LORD CHORLEY

My Lords, the noble Lord has said that the suggestion that water should be taken from the estuaries is a long-term proposal, but is he aware that all the amenities societies have put before Manchester an alternative scheme which is not long-term at all for taking this amount of water, which they are asking to take out of the lakes, out of the rivers rather than from the estuaries? I understand that there is technical advice to the effect that this is a perfectly feasible scheme. Will he see that Manchester look to the technical aspects of this particular proposal, because it would undoubtedly do a great deal to allay the fears and suspicions that the noble Marquess has referred to and which you have only to go to the Lake District to feel in the air?

LORD HASTINGS

My Lords, alternative suggestions can be put forward at the public local inquiry.

LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDAL

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that for immediate use it is possible fairly easily to get some 15 million gallons of water a day from disused mines in the vicinity of Manchester? If that can be done, surely that would ease the immediate problem. Is he further aware that there is great and widespread public anxiety over the fact that, in spite of what this House did two years ago, Manchester would appear still to wish to turn the Lake District into a vast waterworks? Is it not time that the Government said that this really must not be done and that immediate action ought to be taken to take the water from the rivers, near where the rivers flow into the sea? If this had been done in this connection two years ago such a project could be quite easily further advanced. Is it not high time the Government took steps to see that this is now done?

LORD HASTINGS

My Lords, I think the noble Lord is prejudging the public local inquiry. It is my noble friend's duty to preserve his impartiality.

EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he has as vivid a recollection as I have of the debate on this matter to which a great contribution was made by the late Lord Birkett? Would it not be very unwise to try to get a special reference to Parliament upon a procedure which is now laid down by the 1963 legislation in order to meet the needs of millions of people? That should be put before some of those who perhaps speak only from sentiment, although we all love the beauties of our land. I hope that, when the noble Marquess's suggestion is put to the Minister's right honourable friend, he will go back over these matters. I am sure that the noble Marquess will not think I am against him in particular. What I am against is any idea that the needs of millions of people should not be put before these other matters.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, those needs will come up in a debate in Parliament. They are not ruled out.

LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH

My Lords, is it not a quaint situation? The Water Resources Act was passed. As I recollect, that gave powers to the Minister to approve a scheme, subject to public inquiry, and to make an Order, which Order can be challenged in either House of Parliament. Is it not a quaint gesture on the part of the noble Marquess that, despite that Parliamentary enactment to which this House is fully committed, he now wants to jump in before this statutory procedure operates in order to prevent the Minister from giving fair consideration to the matter?

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, the noble Lord is quite misrepresenting me. I simply want the matter to be discussed by Parliament. If that is necessary under the Act, that satisfies me entirely.

THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD CARRINGTON)

. My Lords, I hesitate to interrupt your Lordships, because all are obviously interested in this subject, but I feel that we are getting outside the Rules of Order when the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, asks my noble friend Lord Salisbury a series of questions, which he has answered. I think that if your Lordships feel it necessary, perhaps we might take this matter up at a later stage or have an Unstarred Question; but, with respect, I think that perhaps we might move on now.