HL Deb 08 June 1964 vol 258 cc669-71

2.45 p.m.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether having regard to the difficulty of recruiting adequate staff they will pay to all grades of nursing staffs in geriatric hospitals and hospitals for the chronic sick, similar special salary increments to those paid to nurses in mental hospitals.]

THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF HEALTH (THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN)

My Lords, the determination of the pay and conditions of service of hospital nursing staff is a matter for the Nurses' and Midwives' Whitley Council.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, does that mean that Her Majesty's Government wash their hands of all responsibility? Is the noble Marquess aware that so great is the demand for beds in geriatric hospitals that many wards are closed for lack of staff, and that in others—at my own hospital in particular—we have to engage a number of expensive agency nurses in order to staff the geriatric wards at all? May I ask what Her Majesty's Government intend to do to deal with this very real and almost tragic situation?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

I should like to assure the noble Lord at once that we realise that there is a very difficult situation here in regard to geriatric hospitals and hospitals for the chronic sick; and I should like to say at this moment—I am sure we all agree—that we have the highest admiration for the nurses who are at present working there. At the same time, I cannot change what I said in my original Answer, although I should like to point out to the noble Lord that there is at the moment in front of the Whitley Council a claim for pay increases for nurses in all hospitals. At the same time, we are going to announce fairly shortly special payments for staff, other than student and pupil nurses, below the grade of ward sister for certain duties at night and on Sundays. We all hope that these measures will alleviate the admittedly very difficult situation in such hospitals as he describes.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, while thanking the noble Marquess for, and joining with him in, his tribute to these truly noble women, may I ask whether he cannot go a little further? Can he say whether there is any proposal before the Whitley Council, apart from extra pay for night work, for additional pay, such as is now granted to mental nurses, for those who are nursing geriatric and chronic sick patients?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

I am afraid I cannot tell the noble Lord the exact claim which is before the Whitley Council at the moment. As to the other point which I made about extra pay for night work and Sundays, that, I think, has already been agreed and will be announced quite shortly.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, is the noble Marquess aware that the pay increase which he has just announced to the House—and which is, to be exact, 5s. a night for the whole night—is half or three-quarters of what a noble Lord here would pay for his lunch? Does he not think that the time has come to translate the sympathy which he has expressed into something more tangible? May I emphasise that what my noble friend is asking for is that women who nurse geriatric patients, who need lifting and who may be garrulous, morose or incontinent, should be treated in the same way as those nursing mentally defective people? Surely the noble Marquess could show his sympathy to that suggestion, and the Whitley Council will then observe it in Hansard.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

My Lords, I am certainly prepared to show my sympathy to the suggestion, but I cannot go further to-day than to say what I have already said.

LORD STONHAM

Can the noble Marquess not give an assurance that he will bring this matter urgently to the attention of his right honourable friend? My noble friend Lady Summerskill mentioned that the patients might be incontinent. In the hospital to which I referred, 95 per cent. of them are incontinent, and such a small hospital uses 5,000 draw-sheets a week. That is only one item which has to be dealt with by these truly noble women.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

Yes, my Lords, I certainly shall bring all the points mentioned by the noble Lord and his noble friend to the attention of my right honourable friend.