HL Deb 02 July 1964 vol 259 cc708-9

3.12 p.m.

LORD GRENFELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what measures they are taking to reduce the number of prisoners who are having to sleep three in a cell: and what measure of success they have achieved.]

THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD DERWENT)

My Lords, on June 2 there were 5,925 men sleeping three in a cell, which is a reduction of 2,700 from the peak figure of 8,625 in March, 1963. Since February, 1959, when the current building programme was announced in a White Paper (Cmnd. 645), twelve new prisons and borstals and one remand centre for males have been provided and staffed. Two new establishments for women and girls, releasing accommodation for males, have also been provided. Four further secure prisons for men, one secure borstal for boys, and eight remand centres have been put in hand. Further projects are under consideration.

LORD GRENFELL

My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for his Answer, may I ask whether he can say when the building programme to which he has referred will be completed? Can he also say whether the programme, when completed, will eliminate the need for three to a cell?

LORD DERWENT

The building programme we expect to be completed within four years; and, provided that the prison and borstal population does not rise between now and then, we expect that that building programme will eliminate the need for three in a cell.

THE EARL OF LONGFORD

My Lords, while expressing the pleasure of all concerned with penal reform at some reduction in the number who are sleeping three in a cell, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware that when Mr. Butler became Home Secretary there were rather more than 2,000 sleeping three in a cell, and there are still nearly 6,000.

LORD DERWENT

The prison population has gone up since then.

THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH

My Lords, can the noble Lord give us any news about the closure of Dartmoor as a prison?

LORD DERWENT

I am afraid I cannot. That is a different question, and I cannot give the noble Lord an answer at the moment.