HL Deb 01 July 1964 vol 259 cc588-92

3.7 p.m.

LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government why, in the handbook, The Sentence of the Court, issued by the Home Office to all magistrates, which purports to provide comprehensive information to help courts in selecting the right sentence, no mention is made of the forms of sentence particular to the Road Traffic Acts when offences against the provisions of those Acts constitute approximately 80 per cent. of the work of magistrates' courts.]

THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD DERWENT)

My Lords. the main purpose of this handbook is to provide general information about sentences and forms of treatment, rather than to deal with particular types of offences. To have included information about the provisions of the Road Traffic Acts would have complicated unduly a publication that already attempts to cover a very wide field.

LORD LUCAS or CHILWORTH

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in a very forthright statement made only on Monday last his right honourable friend the Home Secretary said, after referring to the fact that the road accidents problem was one of the greatest problems of our time—and I quote: I do not accept that there is any essential difference between offences against the traffic law and offences against the criminal law. Both are offences against society. Is the noble Lord further aware that Government spokesmen, including Lord Chancellors, have for years impressed on the magistrates' courts of the country that the one great deterrent to the dangerous behaviour of motorists on the roads, which is a prime cause of road accidents, is the sentence of disqualification? Would not the noble Lord agree that it is incongruous that this document, which purports to cover sentences that may be given by the courts, completely ignores this one? Does he not think it a great pity?

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, the answer to the first two supplementary questions is, Yes; to the last one, it is that although disqualification is commonly described as a penalty it is essentially a safety provision, designed to protect the public from the perils of a criminally had driver by excluding him from the roads.

LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH

My Lords, does the noble Lord wish to tell the House that in the Road Traffic Acts the sentence of disqualification is not a sentence?

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, I was referring to the noble Lord's original Question, which asked why disqualification was not mentioned in the pamphlet. Disqualification is, In fact, perfectly clear to magistrates. It is not a form of treatment. I should have thought that to clutter up this pamphlet, which essentially deals in general terms with the form of sentences, would have taken up quite unnecessary room. There is no doubt about what disqualification is.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that in a debate on the Road Traffic Act the Minister then in charge made it clear that, in the view of the Government, disqualification was the best method of dealing with these offenders; and that therefore it was part of the punishment?

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, that may well be so, but I still say that it was unnecessary to describe all sentences in detail in this pamphlet.

LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH

My Lords, with respect to the noble Lord, this is a document issued to all magistrates. Does he not think that it is grossly misleading to state every sentence a court can give, except the one that Parliament has considered to be the greatest deterrent—that is, the sentence of disqualification? If the noble Lord will read the foreword, written by his right honourable friend the Home Secretary, he will see that it says: It is their duty to protect the public and see that there are effective deterrents to crime. Parliament has said that one of the greatest deterrents to dangerous and careless driving is disqualification, and it is the only sentence which it is open to the courts to give that is omitted from the document.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, as the noble Lord knows full well, this pamphlet deals with what happens when sentences are given by the court, and with their effect on offenders. It is unnecessary to explain to magistrates the effect that qualification has on an offender. He is disqualified.

EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH

My Lords, I must say that the Opposition feel exceedingly dissatisfied with the answers of the noble Lord on this matter. If this document is to be properly complete, it should cover all the sentences that are open to magistrates. I must say that I feel completely unhappy about the situation, and I would ask the noble Lord to take it back and have it reconsidered.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD DILHORNE)

My Lords, I am sorry to hear the noble Earl express that view. This handbook does not purport to set out a list of all the circumstances in which a particular sentence can be passed by a magistrate. In my view, it is a very useful handbook. It draws the attention of the magistrates to what happens when they pass particular sentences. It is of great value in that regard, and I hope very much that every magistrate will read it. No one is in any doubt as to what happens when a sentence of disqualification is passed: from that moment, it becomes unlawful to drive a motor car on the road. I endorse, if I may, the expression of opinion given by my noble friend, that it really is not necessary to put in a handbook on sentences, which explains what is meant by Borstal training, and all the rest of it, a paragraph to say that if someone is disqualified from driving on the highway it means that he will no longer be allowed to drive on the highway.

LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH

My Lords, I am sure that the Minister of State for the Home Office will be grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for coming to his rescue, which he certainly needed. But may I put it to the Minister of State that this question of disqualification is an important form of possible sentence for road offences, and would it not be better for him to admit that there has been a little slip-up in the Home Office in the drafting of the document, which Home Secretaries are usually not too "sticky" in admitting, and to promise that, as a consequence, in the next edition consideration will be given to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth?

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, it is certainly an effective form of sentence, but I repeat that it is quite unnecessary to put it in this handbook.

EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, I must say that I am equally uphappy about the answer of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor. All we can do is to return to the matter again. We must pursue it.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, I am sorry to hear the noble Earl say that. I rather feel that, if he is unhappy about my answer, he cannot have made a study of the contents of this handbook, and I shall have great pleasure in sending him one.

EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, I think that we all retain a certain amount of intelligent judgment of the answers given, and we are able to assess whether they are reasonable or not.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, implied that this handbook has been distributed to all magistrates. Will the Minister confirm that this is so, because it does not accord with my experience?

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, my right honourable friend sent it to all magistrates' courts committees, the day before publication, with a circular expressing the hope that the committees would think it right to provide copies for magistrates and stating that the expenditure would rank for repayment.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, is there any information as to how far committees have fulfilled that hope?

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, I have not got such information. That is a matter for the magistrates' committees.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that the net effect of this is that a large number of magistrates have never seen this leaflet?

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, perhaps I can help again on that point. I am very concerned to see that every magistrate should be in a position to get this pamphlet. I have had one or two cases brought to my notice where there has been delay, because the matter has not gone before the magistrates' courts committee. No doubt the committees will have regard to what my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has said, and I hope, perhaps, to what I have said on this matter. If it is brought to my attention that any magistrate has not received a copy, I will take steps, to the best of my ability, to see that he does, because I think that it is very desirable that every magistrate should read and study this excellent handbook.