HL Deb 14 January 1964 vol 254 cc557-69

4.50 p.m.

Report of Amendments received (according to Order).

Clause 2 [The London commission areas]:

VISCOUNT HANWORTH moved, in subsection 2(1)(d), to leave out "southwest London" and substitute "metropolitan Surrey". The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a small Amendment, dealing with the matter of nomenclature, but it is important to local interests. On the Second Reading of the Bill the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor was sympathetic to the wish of the Middlesex justices to retain the county name in the commission of peace for what was called in the Bill, "north-west London". An Amendment to this effect was agreed, the area now being referred to as the "Middlesex area". The present Amendment is suggested for similar reasons.

The south-west area referred to in the Bill comprises London boroughs 21 to 24. These are Kingston-on-Thames, Richmond-on-Thames, Sutton and Merton. With the exception of the present borough of Twickenham, which is being absorbed in the new borough of Richmond, the area lies within the Surrey county boundary. I believe that when making changes we should always try to maintain links with existing institutions and local esprit de corps, if this can be done without loss of efficiency or confusion. As the principle of doing this with the Middlesex area has been accepted, I suggest that my present Amendment is logical and should cause no difficulties. I very much hope that it will be agreed. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 29, leave out ("south-west London") and insert ("metropolitan Surrey").(Viscount Hanworth.)

THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD DERWENT)

My Lords, my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor has asked me to apologise to the House for his enforced absence. In fact, most of the Amendments on the Report stage of this Bill are Home Office Amendments, and I should in any event he moving them. But there are a couple that my noble friend would have liked to deal with himself. He would, for example, have liked to deal with this Amendment of the noble Viscount (he has dealt with the matter before), but he has been compelled to go to a most important meeting. So, again, on his behalf, I offer the House his apologies.

As my noble friend has said, the object of this Amendment is to replace "south-west London area", which is the terminology used at the moment, by the terminology "metropolitan Surrey area" as a description of one of the five London commission areas. The Amendment adapts to the south-west London area the suggestion made for Essex by the noble Earl the Leader of the Opposition at the Committee stage of the Bill: that the "north-east London area" should be named the "metropolitan Essex area". My noble and learned friend resisted this suggestion, first of all on the ground that the description was too long, but principally because confusion might, and probably would, arise between quarter sessions for the metropolitan Essex area and Essex quarter sessions. My Lords, I am afraid the same arguments that my noble and learned friend used in regard to Essex apply in the case of this Amendment; indeed, more so, because, in the case of Surrey, Croydon, together with Coulsdon and Purley, which at present form a sizable area within the county of Surrey, will form part, not of the southwest area at all but of the south-east area; so that we are really getting the suggestion that we are, in fact, going to have two Surreys.

My noble friend is quite right in thinking that the Government are at one with him in wishing to find suitable names for these areas. We should prefer names rather than simply descriptions of "south- west", or "south-east". As the noble Viscount knows, a great deal of thought is being given to this matter, not only by Her Majesty's Government but by many other people; and not only for this area. But we find that we cannot accept a description which would be objectionable either because it was fanciful (though that does not apply here) or because it would be misleading. The objection here is under the heading "misleading". We feel that quite probably there would be a lot of muddle in the public: mind, and even perhaps in the official mind, if we had a "Metropolitan Surrey Quarter Sessions", and a "Surrey Quarter Sessions", and so on. It is not analogous, unfortunately, with the case of Middlesex, because no muddle will arise here since Middlesex will cease to exist altogether. Now that we have called that particular part "Middlesex" we shall have a Middlesex Quarter Sessions and nobody will be in the least muddled. But in this case, when a part of Surrey is going to quite a different area altogether, we regret that we cannot accept the idea of having a "Metropolitan Surrey Quarter Sessions" and a "Surrey Quarter Sessions". In view of what I have said, I hope that my noble friend will withdraw his Amendment. At the same time, I would tell him (and I say this advisedly) that we should be very pleased if he would go on thinking about this matter, because, although this idea of taking an existing name when the existing county will persist elsewhere is in our view not workable, we should like a name for this area.

VISCOUNT HANWORTH

My Lords, in the face of the noble Lord's argument, I should not wish, certainly at this stage of the Bill, to press this Amendment. I beg leave to withdraw it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 8 [Clerks of the peace and other officers]:

LORD DERWENT moved to leave out subsection (7) and to insert: (7) The Local Government (Clerks) Act 1931, except sections 4(5) and (7), 5(2) and (3) and 12, shall not apply to a London commission area or the clerk or deputy clerk of the peace thereof; and the reference in the said section 12 to the powers and duties of a court of quarter sessions under that Act shall include a reference to the powers and duties of a court of quarter sessions under this section (8) The Recorders, Stipendiary Magistrates, and Clerks of the Peace Act 1906 shall not apply in relation to a London commission area.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is primarily a drafting Amendment. The form of subsection (7) has been recast, but the only change of substance is that the position of a clerk of the peace of a London Commission area with regard to retirement age is made clear; it is to be 65, but subject to annual renewal after that date. The re-drafting is to make that matter clear. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 7. line 26, leave out subsection (7) and insert the said new subsections.—(Lord Dement.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, this is purely a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 40, leave out ("arising with respect") and insert ("relating").—(Lord Derwent).

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 17 [Administrative and financial provisions]:

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, this also is a drafting Amendment, necessary because it is intended that the Receiver should be able to use the Greater London superannuation fund for the payment of local government superannuation benefits to the staff of the inner London magistrates courts. Staff who come under the Metropolitan Police staff Superannuation Acts will be superannuated out of the Metropolitan Police Fund. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 40, after ("Act") insert ("other than benefits payable by the Greater London Council").—(Lord Dement.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, this is another drafting Amendment. There are certain superannuation payments other than employers' contributions which the Committee of Magistrates may have to make, and the Amendment recognises this. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 40, after ("contributions") insert ("and other payments").—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 25 [Counties adjoining Greater London]:

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, this is also a drafting Amendment to achieve consistency with the wording of Clause 2(3), of the new clause which will be introduced by the next Amendment. All three provisions perform the function, among others, of securing that relevant parts of the law relating to the administration of justice apply to particular areas. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 21, line 42, leave out from second ("of") to second ("the") in page 22, line 2 and insert, ("the law relating to justices of the peace, quarter sessions, magistrates' courts, the custos rotulorum, lieutenants, sheriffs, juries, clerks of the peace and matters connected with any of those matters").—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

5.0 p.m.

LORD DERWENT moved, after Clause 25, to insert the following new clause:

The Inner and Middle Temples

". It is hereby declared that the Inner Temple and the Middle Temple are included in the City of London, and in no other area, for the purposes of the law relating to county courts, commissions of the peace, justices of the peace, quarter sessions, magistrates' courts, lieutenants, sheriffs, juries and matters connected therewith."

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this requires slightly more explanation. This clause is designed to place it beyond doubt that the Inner and Middle Temples are to be treated as part of the City of London for the purposes of the law relating to county courts, magistrates' courts, Lords lieutenant, sheriffs, juries, et cetera In mediaeval times the Inner and Middle Temples were not part of the City, but were under the direct protection of the Papal See. In later times their exact status was undefined and, in so far as they did not govern themselves, they were usually treated as part of the City; thus the magistrates of the City seem to have exercised jurisdiction there without objection. Moreover, the High Sheriffs of London and Middlesex did not exercise any functions there, while those of the City did. For county court purposes the Temples have in practice been treated as lying within the jurisdiction of the Mayor's and City of London Court. There has remained, however, some doubt about the local government and judicial status of the Temples, and an attempt was made in 1959 to obtain a declaration from the Mayor's and City of London Court that members of the Inner Temple were not entitled to vote in the local elections in the ward of Farringdon Without. The attempt was unsuccessful, but it has been thought wise to clear up the position by Statute. Section 82 of the London Government Act, 1963 (and the subordinate legislation to be made under that section), clarifies the local government position of the Inner and Middle Temples, and it now seems right that the position of the judicial authorities, who in practice exercise jurisdiction there, should be similarly established beyond the possibility of challenge. In other words, we want to make absolutely clear by Statute that fact which in practice pertains and has pertained. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— After Clause 25, insert the said new clause —(Lord Dement.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.—

Clause 26 [General Provision for Indemnity]:

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, may I speak on Amendments 8 and 9 together? These two Amendments go together. Their purpose is to bring the staff of a part-time justices' clerk as well as those of a full-time clerk under the indemnification provisions of Clause 26 of the Bill. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 23, line 22, leave out ("and").—(Lord Derwent.)

LORD CHAMPION

My Lords, I have some little doubt about this Amendment. In every case where there is likely to be or there may be an indemnification, the person to be indemnified is appointed by a magistrates' court committee or by, I take it, a stipendiary magistrate. In this case, so far as I can see, a part-time justices' clerk may appoint anybody from his office without reference to any superior authority at all, and I just wonder whether it is quite a right thing to indemnify any member of a part-time justices' clerk's staff in this rather wholesale way.

LORD DERWENT

The position is approximately as the noble Lord has stated it. But, remember, this deals with indemnities under Clause 26. It is a comparatively narrow point. Clause 26 refers to the staff of a justices' clerk as persons appointed by a magistrates' courts committee to assist the justices' clerk". A part-time justices' clerk, however, is usually a solicitor in private practice who employs his own staff, and the clause as at present drafted would give no indemnification at all. We think it right, in view of the fact that we have not had any scandals of the kind suggested by the noble Lord, that they must have indemnification. I believe it to be right. I do not see how they can be left out of this clause.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DERWENT

I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 23, line 23, after ("clerk") insert ("and any member of the staff of a part-time justices' clerk assisting the clerk in his duties as such").—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 27 [Prerogative proceedings and acts done in quarter sessions]:

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, may I deal with Amendments 10, 11 and 12 together? Clause 27(2)(a) allows the Lord Chancellor, if he thinks fit, to indemnify out of monies provided by Parliament a justice or justices' clerk for costs awarded against him in proceedings for an order of prohibition, mandamus or certiorari. This Amendment and the next two extend the indemnification to the clerk of the peace and his staff. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 23, line 42, leave out ("or justices' clerk") and insert ("justices' clerk or clerk of the peace").—(Lord Dement.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DERWENT

I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 24, line 7, leave out from first ("peace") to end of line 8.—(Lord Dement.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DERWENT

I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 24, line 10, at end insert ("and clerk of the peace' includes a deputy clerk of the peace and a member of the staff of a clerk of the peace").—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, Section 19 of the Children and Young Persons Act, 1963, which requires a recorder to sit with two members of a juvenile court panel as assessors when he is dealing with an appeal or committal for sentence from a juvenile court, has been found not to apply to the Crown Courts at Liverpool and Manchester when they are exercising the jurisdiction of quarter sessions. We think it highly desirable that the section should apply, and it is the purpose of the Amendment to apply it. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— After Clause 31, insert—

Assessors in Lancashire Crown Courts in appeals and committals from juvenile courts

(". Section 19 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1963 (assessors for recorders in appeals and committals from juvenile courts) shall apply to the Crown Court at Liverpool and the Crown Court at Manchester as it applies to the court of quarter sessions for Liverpool or Manchester, as the case may be, but as if any reference therein to the recorder included a reference to any judge of the Court.").—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 32 [Protection of existing officers]:

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, this is a purely drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 25, line 29, leave out ("Regulations under this section shall") and insert ("The Secretary of State shall by regulations")—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 35 [Interpretation]:

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, this is consequential on Amendment No. 7 to which your Lordships have already agreed. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 26, line 30, leave out from ("London") to end of line 31—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule 1 [The Central Criminal Court]:

LORD DERWENT moved, in paragraph 12, to leave out "in custody". The noble Lord said: My Lords, Clause 1(2) of the Bill allows a reduction in the number of sessions at the Central Criminal Court from twelve to four. This means that in future they are to be longer sessions lasting up to three months. That is already in the Bill. Paragraph 12 of Schedule 1 to the Bill provides a safeguard for a person committed in custody to the court for trial in the form of a time limit within which he must be arraigned "unless the court otherwise orders". The time, in fact, is 28 days if the person is committed to the current session; it is 28 days or seven days after the beginning of the session, whichever is later, if he is committed to the next session.

At present under the Bill this safeguard applies only to persons in custody, and it is, of course, especially important that their interests should be protected. But we have also been considering, in consultation with the interested authorities, whether it would be right to apply it to a person on bail. We have to bear in mind that a considerable proportion of bail cases involve lengthy preparation, and if the "28-day rule" is applied to them there will inevitably be a number of exceptions to the rule, in that cases will not be ready to begin within the specified period. In those cases, the court will have to "order otherwise" and set down a new date for the hearing of the trial. However, while recognising that there will be these exceptions to the rule, we think on the whole that it would be right to give persons on bail as well as those in custody assurance that the Central Criminal Court will take cognizance of their case within the specified period. The Amendment has that effect. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 30, line 21, leave out ("in custody").—(Lord Derwent).

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, this is a further drafting Amendment, which makes it clear that if the Central Criminal Court finds it necessary to order that the trial of an accused person shall not begin within the time limit prescribed in Schedule 1, paragraph 12, the court must make the order before the time limit has been reached. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 30, line 22, leave out ("otherwise orders") and insert ("has otherwise ordered").—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule 3 [Adaptation, amendment and modification of enactments]:

5.11 p.m.

LORD DERWENT moved to add to paragraph 12: (3) Section 64(3) shall apply in relation to each London commission area as if for references to the county council there were substituted references to the Greater London Council". The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment deals with the provision of quarter sessions accommodation and equipment. The Greater London Council is to provide these for the London commission areas, and the Amendment makes the necessary adaptation to Section 64(3) of the Local Government Act, 1881, which relates to the equivalent duties of county councils. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 33, line 30, at end insert the said subparagraph.—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, this, again, is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 33, line 33, at end insert— ("(4) Section 83(4) shall not apply to a London Commission area.").—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 34, line 45, leave out ("9") and insert ("7").—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, this Amendment makes it clear that expenditure out of the Metropolitan Police Fund to meet the cost of the probation service in inner London is to qualify for Exchequer grant, as does expenditure on the probation service elsewhere. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 34, line 46, at end insert— ("(2) In section 77(3)(a) the reference to Schedule 5 shall include a reference to section 21(4) of this Act.").—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, this, too, is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 35, line 25, leave out ("(10)(d)").— (Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, this Amendment enables the usual Exchequer contribution to be paid towards the cost of indemnifying justices and their clerks under the new procedure provided in Clause 26 of the Bill as it is under the present procedure. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 35, line 26, at end insert ("and in section 27(2) the reference to functions under Parts III and IV of the Justices of the Peace Act 1949 shall include a reference to functions under section 26 of this Act").—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 36, line 11, leave out second ("of") and insert ("for").—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

5.17 p.m.

LORD DERWENT moved, after paragraph 27, to insert:

"THE OFFICES, SHOPS AND RAILWAY PREMISES ACT 1963

28. In section 52(3), for paragraph (c) there shall be substituted the following paragraph— '(c) premises provided and maintained for purposes connected with the administration of justice by the council of a county, the Greater London Council, a local authority or the receiver for the metropolitan police district'. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of this Amendment is to ensure that in respect of court houses and probation buildings provided by the Greater London Council and the Receiver the provisions of the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act, 1963, are enforceable by factory inspectors, as is the case with other local authority buildings. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 37, line 29, at end insert the said paragraph.—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule 4 [Transitional provisions]:

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, this Amendment corrects a mistaken belief that October has 30 days. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 41, line 2, leave out ("30th") and insert ("31st").—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DERWENT moved to add to paragraph 9: (4) A member of a juvenile court panel for one or more petty sessional divisions of a county adjoining Greater London appointed under arrangements mentioned in paragraph 8 of this Schedule shall hold office until 31st October 1967. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of this Amendment is to keep the period of appointment of juvenile court panels for new or altered petty sessional divisions of counties adjoining Greater London in step with the three-yearly rhythm elsewhere; and a similar provision is made for Outer London by paragraph 9(3) of this Schedule. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 41, line 3, at end insert the said subparagraph.—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, this is another drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 45, line 10, leave out from ("committed") to ("or") in line 11 and insert ("to the court for trial, sentence or order or under section 5 of the Vagrancy Act 1824.")—(Lord Dement.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule 5 [Repeals]:

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, with the permission of the Committee, I should like to speak on Amendments Nos. 29 to 33 together. These are all part of Schedule 5. They are all drafting Amendments. They have nothing of substance in them. If no one has any objection, to save time I should like to deal with these five Amendments en bloc. I beg to move Amendment No. 29.

Amendment moved— Page 48, line 52, at end insert ("Section 46(6)").—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 48, line 56, leave out ("to") and insert ("(2), (3),").—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 48, line 57, at end insert ("Section 91").—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 48, line 58, at end insert ("In section 100, the definition of 'metropolis'. Section 115").—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 49, line 56, at end insert ("Section 399(2)").—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DERWENT

My Lords, this Amendment preserves the statutory provision whereby a temporary metropolitan stipendiary magistrate may take the oath of allegiance and judicial oath before any of the permanent metropolitan stipendiary magistrates.

Amendment moved— Page 51, line 26, leave out ("Section 2(3)").—(Lord Derwent.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.